1881/91/1901 census look up please

[marineliferescue]

Hi

I am trying to trace Alfred Byron Holmes b 1878 Blackfriars on the above census. I know he enlisted at the age of 14yrs into the Northamptonshire regiment, he served in Africa 1899/1900 and 1903/1904, the rest of the time he was based in UK. He had an older brother Thomas Byron who served with the Borders Reg. On Thomas' army record it lists recipient of monies as Catherine Holmes (mother?) Cannot find any census returns with Thomas B, Alfred B and mother Catherine. Can anyone help

 

[oznannie]

Hi
Anx have a baptism for Alfred Byron Holmes
Nov 18th 1877 mother Jane, address is 3 ?? Cl Green St
Above this is Sarah Holmes same date and address, father Peter crossed out labourer.
Sarah's surname is double Byron Holmes.
Same day and details, no father listed
Thomas Byron Holmes.
All Saints Walworth in the boro of Southwark

Strange?

oznannie

 

[oznannie]

Emily Byron Holmes
1879 4th qtr Southwark.
I wouldn't list these except for their unusual middle names.
They must be related?

oznannie

1901 she's listed as a pupil, School for the Blind.

 

[davelambert271]

Hi
This may help
1881 England Census
about Thomas Byron Name: Thomas Byron
Age: 6
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1875
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Peter Byron
Mother's Name: Jane Byron
Gender: Male
Where born: St Georges, Surrey, England

Civil parish: Bermondsey
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 50 Crosby Row

Registration district: St Olave Southwark
Sub-registration district: Leather Market

Piece: 559 Folio: 57 Page Number: 54

Peter Byron 48 St Saviour Book Binder
Jane Byron 48 "
Kate Holms 10 step dau St Saviour
Sarah Byron 8 Dau St Saviour
Thomas Byron 6 Son St George
Alfred Byron 3 "
Emma Byron 1 "
Emily Rel 27 Serv Visitor

dave

 

[davelambert271]

Hi MLR

??
Marriages Mar 1870 (2Jan1870 St Thomas, Stepney)
Byron Mary Jane Mile End 1c 765 (father William)
Coffee Harriet Mary A Mile End 1c 765
HOLMES Samuel Joseph Mile End 1c 765 (father Samuel)
NORRIS William Mile End 1c 765

dave

 

[davelambert271]

Hi MLR

I think this is Jane and Samuel in 1871 I wonder if daughter Jane is Kate, and if Kate (1881 census)may be Thomas's next of kin, step sister rather than mother).

HOLMES, Joseph Head M 38 1833 Surrey
HOLMES, Jane Wife F 37 1834 Surrey
HOLMES, Jane Daughter F 0 1871 Surrey

Piece:599 Folio:30 Page:53

Registration District: St Saviour Southwark

Civil Parish: St George the Martyr Municipal Borough:
Address: St Stephen Place, St George The Martyr London, Surrey

dave

 

[davelambert271]

Hi MLR
I've been trying to work out if Mary Jane Byron married Samuel Joseph Holmes, how was she then married to Peter Byron
Are the children Samuels or Peters? I think possibly Samuels. Why was Peter Byron named as father, but crossed out on Sarahs record and only Jane Holmes as parent on all three. They were all baptised in 1877 and at first I thought Byron was their father's name, but of course it's their mothers. I cant find a marriage for Peter and Jane, so is she living with a brother and not married to him, if so who's child was Emma. OZN gives a record for Emily who could be her, but so far I've not found this. I'm also having problems finding any records for Peter.

dave

 

[davelambert271]

Hi MLR
and so the plot thickens

I found Emily on the 1901 census, and then I found her marriage to William Edward Short, on Dec 25th 1909 in Tower Hamlets. Her father was given as, Peter Holmes, iron worker.

1870, Samuel Joseph Holmes married Jane Byron
1871, Joseph Holmes aged 38, b Southwark with wife Jane 37
1881, Peter Byron 48 Southwark with Jane 48
1909, Peter Holmes father of Emily Byron Holmes

Could Samuel, Joseph and Peter be the same person

dave

 

[marineliferescue]

Hi

Wow, thanks for all that, it is as clear as mud now. What on earth is going on??? Just been looking at the service record for Thomas Byron Holmes who served with the Scottish Borders reg. On it it shows that his service payments are to KATHERINE HOLMES mother??? it is very hard to read, but then there is a cross through the name KAtherine. I am so confused

 

[davelambert271]

I wondered if Catherine had been put as mother when in fact she was not. Kate is short for Catherine and I wondered if it was Kate Holms born 1870 on 1881 census, who may have been head of the household

dave

 

[marineliferescue]

Hi

Just an update on this mystery and it is even more confusing. On 1881 census Jane (mother) is living with Peter Byron (so sure they weren't married). Kate Holmes is on the census and it looks like she is the daughter of Jane and John Holmes who I found on 1871 census. John Holmes married Jane Catherine in 1851, I am wondering if Jane left her husband and went to live with Peter Byron and had the subsequent children with him and this is how they came to be known as Byron Holmes in later life. It also looks like Peter Byron was also married possibly to Louisa Matilda Hughes. Does this make any sense or I am barking up the wrong tree

 

[marineliferescue]

Hi

Believe it or not it just got more confusing. I am thinking that JAne Catherine married not John Holmes but Jonathan Thorpe and had 4 children with him one of which, Mary Ann Thorp b 1852 Hammersmith, is living with her grandparents Matthew and Rosanna Catherine in Durham (these are the parents of Jane Catherine) on 1861 census together with another grandson Thomas Catherine b 1852 Hammersmith. So at the moment I have Jane Catherine marrying Jonathan Thorp and having 4 children, she goes and lives with John Holmes and has another daughter, then goes and lives with Peter Byron and has 3 children. I am assuming that this is the same lady as on 1871 census Jane appears as JANE HOLMES with husband JOHN and living with them is stepson JOHN THORPE b 1855 Middlesex, Can't find a marriage for Jane and John Holmes. Dare I ask what you think!!!!!!!!!