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Andrew & Mary Ann DOWNEY

DaveHam9

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#1
Hello,

Are they siblings who married siblings?

Mary Ann DOWNEY b. 12 Apr 1839 Belfast, Ireland ** can that one be found?

Andrew DOWNEY b. 18 Apr 1847 Chippendale, NSW

Charles HILDER b. 2 Mar 1838 Sussex, England

Elizabeth Annie HILDER b. 1 Sep 1852 Picton, NSW

St Paul's Church Narellan
No 25
Charles Hilder Bachelor County of Sussex England Farmer 23 Narellan Narellan Moses Hilder Elizabeth Styles Farmer
Mary Ann Downey Spinster Belfast Ireland Carter's daughter 21 Narellan Narellan George Downey Sarah Ann McMullen ? Carter
married 14th February 1861 by me Thos. Hassall
Both signed
Witnesses: Albert Whiteman, Jane Hilder

St Paul's Church Narellan
No 53
Andrew Downey Bachelor Chippendale Sydney Moulder 23 Redfern Sydney Redfern George & Sarah Downey (m. name McMurray ?) Labourer
Elizabeth Anne Hilder Spinster The Oaks Parish of Picton NSW Farmer's daughter 18 Elderslie Narellan Moses & Elizabeth Hilder (m. name Styles) Farmer
married 31 December 1870 by me Arthur W. Pain
Both signed
Witnesses: William Hilder, Charlotte Hilder

Note: The married names are hard to read so I'm not sure if the names are exactly as I've written them here or not. I can't rely on the marriages alone to say Andrew and Mary Ann are siblings.

Births
V1845659 30A/1845 DOWNEY JANE GEORGE SARAH
V1847714 32A/1847 DOWNEY ANDREW GEORGE SARAH
V1849778 34A/1849 DOWNEY SARAH C GEORGE SARAH
3301/1859 DOWNEY OVARINA GEORGE SARAH CHIPPENDALE &&

Jane b. 1 Feb 1845 baptised 13 Apr 1845 St Andrews, Sydney

Deaths
3206/1879 DOWNEY GEORGE WILLIAM DIED SYDNEY REDFERN
10412/1905 DOWNEY SARAH THOMAS JANE REDFERN

The Sydney Morning Herald - Monday 19 May 1879 p.8
FUNERALS
THE FRIENDS of the late Mr. GEORGE DOWNEY are respectfully invited to attend his Funeral, to move from from his late residence, Pitt-street, Redfern South, THIS (Monday) AFTERNOON, at 2 o'clock, for the Necropolis.
J. AND G. SHYING and CO., 719 George-street South ; 120 Oxford-street.

THE FRIENDS of Mr. ANDREW DOWNEY are respectfully invited to attend the Funeral of his late beloved FATHER, George, to move from Pitt-street, Redfern South, THIS (Monday) AFTERNOON, at 2 o'clock, for the Necropolis.
J. and G. SHYING and CO., Abercrombie-street.

Marriage 316/1880 BELLINGHAM ALFRED - DOWNEY EVA N - SYDNEY &&

Birth 8183/1882 BELLINGHAM LIONEL A - ALFRED - EVARINA - REDFERN

The Sydney Morning Herald - Tuesday 19 September 1905 p. 4
DEATHS
DOWNEY.-September 18, 1905, at the residence of her daughter, Mrs. Alfred Bellingham, 155 Pitt street, Redfern, Sarah, relict of the late George Downey, of Redfern, aged 70 years.

The Sydney Morning Herald - Wednesday 20 July 1881 p.1
DEATHS
DOWNEY.-July 1, from burns accidently received at the Atlas Works, Andrew Downey of Pitt Street, Redfern, aged 34 years.

I have the HILDER family in shipping records but not the DOWNEY family.

That's not the only problem. There are two other DOWNEY families - Patrick & Sarah and Michael & Sarah. That's right 3x Sarah.

The Sarah who died in 1905 was the spouse of George and it seems there was only one George so age at death if correct at 70 creates a real problem.

The DOWNEY family arrived Apr 1839 - Apr 1845 ???

Regards,

Dave
 
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DaveHam9

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#2
Thanks gibbo. :D

A tree HERE

It has McMURRAY yet I read the name as McMULLEN so I'd better view that film of the marriage register again. Looks as though Andrew and Mary Ann are siblings.

Still curious the author of the tree has Andrew's marriage to the HILDER sister but no birth or parents or death for Andrew.

Assisted
DOWNAY George 38 Herald 1844 Sydney and/or Newcastle and family Reel 2135, [4/4785] Page 1; Reel 2449, [4/4892]
DOWNAY Sarah 33 Herald 1844 Sydney and/or Newcastle and family Reel 2135, [4/4785] Page 1; Reel 2449, [4/4892]
DOWNAY Marianne 4 Herald 1844 Sydney and/or Newcastle and family Reel 2135, [4/4785] Page 1; Reel 2449, [4/4892]
DOWNAY William inft Herald 1844 Sydney and/or Newcastle and family. Died on voyage (dv) Reel 2449, [4/4892]

Arrived 10 Jan 1844

George 38 Co Fermanagh Protestant Both Labourer
Sarah 33 Co Monaghan Presbyterian Read only House servant
Maryann 4 Co Fermanagh Presbyterian Daughter
 

DaveHam9

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#3
Anglican & General Cemetery Rookwood, NSW

DOWNEY ANDREW Not Available 03-07-1881
Interment Detail Information
Cemetery Anglican & General Cemetery Trusts
Area AN
Section E
Row N/A
Block/Plot N/A
Grave No. 0000315

MARTIN ELIZABETH A Not Available 05-11-1900
Interment Detail Information
Cemetery Anglican & General Cemetery Trusts
Area AN
Section E
Row N/A
Block/Plot N/A
Grave No. 0000315


Elizabeth remarried.
 

DaveHam9

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#4
DOWNEY GEORGE Not Available 19-05-1879
Interment Detail Information
Cemetery Anglican & General Cemetery Trusts
Area AN
Section AA
Row N/A
Block/Plot N/A
Grave No. 0000162

DOWNEY SARAH Not Available 19-09-1905
Interment Detail Information
Cemetery Anglican & General Cemetery Trusts
Area AN
Section AA
Row N/A
Block/Plot N/A
Grave No. 0000162
 

DaveHam9

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#5
HILDER Elizabeth Death notice 11DEC1881 Death 68 at Redfern, late of Camden SMH 12DEC1881

Australian Town and Country Journal (NSW : 1870 - 1907) - Saturday 17 December 1881 p.41
DEATHS
HILDER.-December 11, at the residence of her daughter, Mrs. Downey (widow of the late Andrew Downey), 28 Douglas-street, Redfern, Elizabeth, widow of the late Moses Hilder, late of Camden, aged 68 years.
 

gibbo

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#6
Thanks gibbo. :D

A tree HERE

It has McMURRAY yet I read the name as McMULLEN so I'd better view that film of the marriage register again. Looks as though Andrew and Mary Ann are siblings.

Still curious the author of the tree has Andrew's marriage to the HILDER sister but no birth or parents or death for Andrew.

Assisted
DOWNAY George 38 Herald 1844 Sydney and/or Newcastle and family Reel 2135, [4/4785] Page 1; Reel 2449, [4/4892]
DOWNAY Sarah 33 Herald 1844 Sydney and/or Newcastle and family Reel 2135, [4/4785] Page 1; Reel 2449, [4/4892]
DOWNAY Marianne 4 Herald 1844 Sydney and/or Newcastle and family Reel 2135, [4/4785] Page 1; Reel 2449, [4/4892]
DOWNAY William inft Herald 1844 Sydney and/or Newcastle and family. Died on voyage (dv) Reel 2449, [4/4892]

Arrived 10 Jan 1844

George 38 Co Fermanagh Protestant Both Labourer
Sarah 33 Co Monaghan Presbyterian Read only House servant
Maryann 4 Co Fermanagh Presbyterian Daughter


Your welcome Dave :biggrin:
I'll read the rest of the thread now and see where we are up to with it :2fun::2fun::2fun:
 

DaveHam9

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#7
Well did two siblings marry two siblings? :2fun:

I am 100% sure about the HILDER but not yet 100% about the DOWNEY.
 

gibbo

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So we need to confirm if Mary Ann and Andrew were brother and sister then? :confused:
The passenger list was the easiest part for a change :2fun::2fun:
 

DaveHam9

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#9
In a word - yes :2fun:

One marriage says mother = Sarah and the other says Sarah Ann

One seems to have McMURRAY and the other seems to read McMULLEN.

It might be the way I read it or I may have read it correctly.

One problem we have is that Andrew died young.
 

DaveHam9

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Births
V1845659 30A/1845 DOWNEY JANE GEORGE SARAH
V1847714 32A/1847 DOWNEY ANDREW GEORGE SARAH
V1849778 34A/1849 DOWNEY SARAH C GEORGE SARAH
3301/1859 DOWNEY OVARINA GEORGE SARAH CHIPPENDALE &&

Ovarina=Evarina=Eva married BELLINGHAM

So the Sarah who died in 1905 was spouse of a George and mother of Evarina and Andrew.

Age 70 so born about 1835 so Jane born in 1845. ??? If she is the mother of Mary Ann born 1839 then age 70 at death is way out.

Shipping record says 33 in 1844 so born 1811 so 94 in 1905. Can't guess age is only 70 so where is the error? The newspaper page is very clear and 100% it reads 70.
 
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DaveHam9

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#11
The births show variations in mother's name:

6906/1880 BELLINGHAM EDITH EVA ALFRED EVA REDFERN
8183/1882 BELLINGHAM LIONEL A ALFRED EVARINA REDFERN
8991/1883 BELLINGHAM FREDERICK GEORGE ALFRED EVA REDFERN
10965/1886 BELLINGHAM ETHEL O ALFRED EVARINA REDFERN
8637/1889 BELLINGHAM ARTHUR T ALFRED EVARINA REDFERN
31123/1892 BELLINGHAM ANDREW D ALFRED EVARINA REDFERN
36216/1895 BELLINGHAM RICHARD H ALFRED EVARINA REDFERN
 

DaveHam9

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#12
George and Sarah both lived in Pitt-street Redfern but no age at death for George. If that George and Sarah are not those in the shipping record then where are the deaths of those two?

Not this death - son of Andrew & Elizabeth Ann:

3597/1876 DOWNAY GEORGE H ANDREW ELIZABETH A REDFERN

I chose the Sarah who died in 1905 despite the age because of Daughter Evarina.

So do we have 2x Evarina from different DOWNAY/DOWNEY families?

Not this one and the others born after the marriage to Bellingham. Can't find the 1880 marriage in TROVE to check parents of Eva.

8242/1872 DOWNEY EVA J ANDREW ELIZABETH A CAMDEN
 
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DaveHam9

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#13
The tree has no death for George or Sarah.

There are deaths in other parts of Sydney and country NSW for several George & Sarah. Looks as though all will have to be checked.
 

gibbo

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#15
Dont think this helps any neither but ...........

The Sydney Morning Herald (NSW : 1842 - 1954)
Saturday 18 February 1882

SPECIAL NOTICE UNDER REAL PROPERTY ACT.-APPLICATIONS having boon mudo, undor section 79

of the Real Property Act, hy this undermentioned, to he registered .is " Proprietors ny Transmission " of the lands hcreunder , described, such applications will be complied with, and CcrtiOcau» of Title issued m accordance therewith, unless Caveat« bo lodged on or before the date named opposite each case reRpectivuly.
Date up to and in-clusive ot which Caveats may bo lodged. Property.
' *n>CT,x_xvi. 2 acres, 2 acres, and 1 acre, snburbnn allotments 3
and 4 of section 22, and 6 of section 32, town and pariih of Glen *? Innes, county of. Gough.
' vnciixxxrx. The undivided moiety of Jane Wood, deceased, of
and in 2 rood*, allotment 11 of section 24, in town and parish of F Goulburn, and comity of Argyle.

VnocxxXTJEC. *> aerea, portion 7-1, at TJflomogo, in the district of 7 Bligh, parish of and county of Gowan.
' »mci-IT. One moiety of 22 perches at Redfern, pariah of Alex-,»adria, put of lot 28 of aectíon 6 of the Redfern -state.
Names and Residences!
of Applicant.
Augustus Ryan Fraser,
of Tenterfield, and John Gilchrist, of Sydney.
Jesse George Hollo-way, of Goulburn and John Willum ThwaitCjOÍ Murray's Flats,
Mary Cosgrove, of Ulomogo.
Eva Rina Bellingham, formerly Eva Rina Downey, spinster, but now wife of Alfred Bellingham, of Fitt-street, Red-fern.

Title, how claimed.

Ti ustccs under the will of Cohn Alex amlcr Fraser.
Executors under the will of the said Jane Wood.
Administratrix of the etitutc of Thomas Cosgrove.
Devisee under the will of Gcorgo Downcy; deceased.

lt>82. March »I.

March 24. March 21.

- Diagrama' delmeafting these lauds may bo inspected at the Keir-trar^Gcncral'b Office, m Elizabeth-street, Svdney. , ' Dated tlus Uti. day ot February. 1882. ar the Registrar-General's Office, Sydney.

E. G. WARD, RcEibtrar-GcneiTal.
 

DaveHam9

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#16
Thanks but I don't understand the legal bit. :2fun:

devisee n. a person who receives a gift of real property by a will.

So it looks as though George in his will made a gift of some property.
 

DaveHam9

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I had some luck today at the library. Found 14 marriages but didn't find a few I wanted.

I checked these two again and I read the names the same way.

St Paul's Church Narellan
No 25
Charles Hilder Bachelor County of Sussex England Farmer 23 Narellan Narellan Moses Hilder Elizabeth Styles Farmer
Mary Ann Downey Spinster Belfast Ireland Carter's daughter 21 Narellan Narellan George Downey Sarah Ann McMullen - Carter
married 14th February 1861 by me Thos. Hassall
Both signed
Witnesses: Albert Whiteman, Jane Hilder


St Paul's Church Narellan
No 53
Andrew Downey Bachelor Chippendale Sydney Moulder 23 Redfern Sydney Redfern George & Sarah Downey (m. name McMurray) - Labourer
Elizabeth Anne Hilder Spinster The Oaks Parish of Picton NSW Farmer's daughter 18 Elderslie Narellan Moses & Elizabeth Hilder (m. name Styles) Farmer
married 31 December 1870 by me Arthur W. Pain
Both signed
Witnesses: William Hilder, Charlotte Hilder

So is it an error or did George DOWNEY marry twice or are Andrew and Mary Ann not siblings?

We have the death for a Sarah DOWNEY age 70 at death in 1905 that just does not fit.
 
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DaveHam9

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#20
Mary Ann's death shows mother just as Sarah not Sarah A or Sarah Ann.

Death 6972/1903 HILDER MARY A - GEORGE - SARAH - NARROMINE

Andrew's birth shows mother as just Sarah:

Birth V1847714 32A/1847 DOWNEY ANDREW - GEORGE - SARAH


George would have married Sarah in Ireland around 1838.

Sarah is listed as being 33 in 1844 so she would have been 94. Can't make an error like that and say she was 70. We must have 2x Sarah and a death we have missed. So where is the error?

Marriage 975/1858 DOWNEY GEORGE - FULLER SARAH - SYDNEY

It's not Mc.... but FULLER. Still does not explain the different names in the marriages but shows we could have 2x George and 2x or 3x Sarah in Sydney.

Birth 3301/1859 DOWNEY OVARINA - GEORGE - SARAH - CHIPPENDALE

That Sarah died in 1905 and the matching George died in 1879 and the son is Andrew born 1847. There is no birth of an Andrew after that 1858 marriage. So George remarried but still does not explain the 2x Mc and where is the death of Sarah before 1858 marriage?

V185592 107/1855 DOWNIE SARAH AGE 44
V1855930 139/1855 DOWNIE SARAH AGE 44

:2fun: An exact fit for age.
 
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