Burgess - Wilde family history

[gibbo]

Hi Gibbo,
Can you tell me the site you accessed this info from please
Cheers Lyn

Hi Lyn,

Got it from Familysearch.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:24QW-CPR

 

[lyn somebody]

I have come into this 24 posts in so forgive me if I am not up to speed with it all.
As far as I can see you want to know whether your father was actually the son of his mother's husband. You really will have to get his birth certificate. A married woman can have a child that is not her husband's but it will still have her married surname and she will put her maiden name on the birth certificate but the father's name column will be empty. You can not tell this just from the entry in the index, you will have to see the actual certificate.

The 1939 register of households will be free to FMP subscribers from Feb 16th, your father's name will be officially closed as he was born after 1915 but Sarah Burgess will be there and it will be interesting to see who she is living with. Viola Penketh (nee Burgess) is there in St Helens but it seems she didn't actually marry Wm Penketh till 1947 so that household will also be interesting !
Will let you know if I find anything after Feb 16th.

Elaine
PS you say Sarah Burgess died 1942, a Sarah E E Burgess aged 53 died St Helens 1947, do you think that is her?

Hi,
Thankyou
I will have to clarify, but I am pretty sure my dads bith certificate has James name on it. Sorry for my ignorance, but what does FMP stand for?
I would say that is Sarahs death. Thankyou for your help. Cheers Lyn

 

[lyn somebody]

This may, or may not be your James Burgess.

1901 UK. census.

James Burgess
Age: 6
abt 1895
Son.

Father - William Burgess. Occ. Gas Works labourer.
Mother - Mary I Burgess. (The I looks more like a J when compared)
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire.
Civil Parish - North Manchester

Eccl. parish - Beswick and Bradford Christchurch
County- Lancashire

Address - 20 Arches Street.

Reg. district - Prestwich
Sub-reg dist -Newton
ED-30. Piece - 3761. Folio - 118. Page -21

Sched No.120

William Burgess 44
Mary I Burgess 46
Alfred Burgess 19
Leah Burgess 17
John Burgess 14
Eva Burgess 11
Emma Burgess 8
James Burgess 6


IF, this is the right family, William Burgess(c1856/7. Manchester), appears in 1881, 1891, 1901 but not in 1911.

Mary Jane Burgess, appears to die in 1904. Reg Dist Prestwich(as in 1901 census).

Mary Jane Burgess
Birth year: abt 1854
Year: 1904
Quarter. Apr-May-Jun
Age- 50
Reg district -Prestwich.
Lancashire
Volume - 8d
Page - 199.

There is also a possible death for William Burgess in 1911, Northwich.

William Burgess
Birth year: abt 1855
Year: 1911
Quarter - Jan-Feb-Mar
Age 56
Reg dist - Northwich
County: Cheshire
Vol - 8a
Page - 182


Steve.

Hi Steve,
Thanks. This is certainly the age James would have been. I cant believe how much I have learned in a week! Thanks again-Lyn

 

[lyn somebody]

This may, or may not be your James Burgess.

1901 UK. census.

James Burgess
Age: 6
abt 1895
Son.

Father - William Burgess. Occ. Gas Works labourer.
Mother - Mary I Burgess. (The I looks more like a J when compared)
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire.
Civil Parish - North Manchester

Eccl. parish - Beswick and Bradford Christchurch
County- Lancashire

Address - 20 Arches Street.

Reg. district - Prestwich
Sub-reg dist -Newton
ED-30. Piece - 3761. Folio - 118. Page -21

Sched No.120

William Burgess 44
Mary I Burgess 46
Alfred Burgess 19
Leah Burgess 17
John Burgess 14
Eva Burgess 11
Emma Burgess 8
James Burgess 6


IF, this is the right family, William Burgess(c1856/7. Manchester), appears in 1881, 1891, 1901 but not in 1911.

Mary Jane Burgess, appears to die in 1904. Reg Dist Prestwich(as in 1901 census).

Mary Jane Burgess
Birth year: abt 1854
Year: 1904
Quarter. Apr-May-Jun
Age- 50
Reg district -Prestwich.
Lancashire
Volume - 8d
Page - 199.

There is also a possible death for William Burgess in 1911, Northwich.

William Burgess
Birth year: abt 1855
Year: 1911
Quarter - Jan-Feb-Mar
Age 56
Reg dist - Northwich
County: Cheshire
Vol - 8a
Page - 182


Steve.

Hi Steve - I do think this is the James I am looking for; however I was looking through this post and remembered that my cousin had told me one of James' brothers names was Harold. It doesn't appear on this census. I suppose he could have been younger (not born); older and already left home, or used middle or another name

 

[lyn somebody]

I have come into this 24 posts in so forgive me if I am not up to speed with it all.
As far as I can see you want to know whether your father was actually the son of his mother's husband. You really will have to get his birth certificate. A married woman can have a child that is not her husband's but it will still have her married surname and she will put her maiden name on the birth certificate but the father's name column will be empty. You can not tell this just from the entry in the index, you will have to see the actual certificate.

The 1939 register of households will be free to FMP subscribers from Feb 16th, your father's name will be officially closed as he was born after 1915 but Sarah Burgess will be there and it will be interesting to see who she is living with. Viola Penketh (nee Burgess) is there in St Helens but it seems she didn't actually marry Wm Penketh till 1947 so that household will also be interesting !
Will let you know if I find anything after Feb 16th.


Elaine
PS you say Sarah Burgess died 1942, a Sarah E E Burgess aged 53 died St Helens 1947, do you think that is her?

Hi Elaine,
Many thanks for your information. I rang mum today and she said that James is named as Kenneth's father on his birth certificate.
I do know that Sarah lived with an Arthur Brown; he is not listed as a father to any of Sarah's children.
I believe all of Sarah's children have James Burgess listed as father.
Viola is still alive "100" and lives in a nursing home in St Helens.
I think this death is our Sarah

Cheers Lyn

 

[stockpot]

Sorry you were confused by FMP - it is Find My Past, a subscription genealogy site.

re my post #33 where I noted the marriage of William Burgess & Mary Jane Wild in Ashton 1875.
It is easy to follow this couple through the censuses. In 1901 Mary is given as Mary Ann but the names etc of the children confirm that she is the Mary Jane in the other censuses.
In 1901 we have on Manchester Rd Ashton under lyne:-

William Burgess Head Married 47 Cotton Spinner Ashton under Lyne,
Mary Ann Burgess Wife Married 45 Cotton Card Room Hand Stockport,
Albert T Burgess Son Single 19 Cotton Grinder Ashton under Lyne,
William Burgess Son Single 16 Piecer Cotton Mill Ashton under Lyne,
John Burgess Son 13 Piecer Cotton Mill Ashton under Lyne,
James Burgess Son 9 Ashton under Lyne,
Harold Burgess Son 5 Ashton under Lyne,
William Cheetham Son-In-Law Married 27 Printer Compositor Ashton under Lyne,
Mary A Cheetham Daughter Married 24 Cotton Card Room Hand Ashton under Lyne,
Alice Cheetham Grand Daughter 0 1901 Ashton under Lyne,

Note there is a brother Harold after James which fits with your information but James was born Nov 28 1891 so two years too old for James in America. I can't understand this as I am sure this is the family of William Burgess & Mary Jane Wild, as given at James's marriage.

Will have another think!
Elaine

 

[stockpot]

James says in 1920 that he has been in the USA since 1908, do you know who he emigrated with? he would have been too young to have gone on his own if he was 25 in 1920.

Looking at the 1901 census in post #46, son in law William Cheetham.
there was a William Cheetham, printer aged 33 sailed from Liverpool to New York January 1907 and a Mary A Cheetham housewife sailed July 1908. Tempting to think that her brother James went with her but I can't find him!

Elaine

 

[DaveHam9]

I think you are right Elaine.

Mary Ann Burgess Wife Married 45 Cotton Card Room Hand Stockport

I'd say the 25 in 1920 was out and that 1891 is right for James.

Dave

 

[lyn somebody]

James says in 1920 that he has been in the USA since 1908, do you know who he emigrated with? he would have been too young to have gone on his own if he was 25 in 1920.

Looking at the 1901 census in post #46, son in law William Cheetham.
there was a William Cheetham, printer aged 33 sailed from Liverpool to New York January 1907 and a Mary A Cheetham housewife sailed July 1908. Tempting to think that her brother James went with her but I can't find him!

Elaine

Hi Elaine
Sorry I dont have any idea about immigration, only what I found on the census. I wonder if any others immigrated?

 

[lyn somebody]

Sorry you were confused by FMP - it is Find My Past, a subscription genealogy site.

re my post #33 where I noted the marriage of William Burgess & Mary Jane Wild in Ashton 1875.
It is easy to follow this couple through the censuses. In 1901 Mary is given as Mary Ann but the names etc of the children confirm that she is the Mary Jane in the other censuses.
In 1901 we have on Manchester Rd Ashton under lyne:-

William Burgess Head Married 47 Cotton Spinner Ashton under Lyne,
Mary Ann Burgess Wife Married 45 Cotton Card Room Hand Stockport,
Albert T Burgess Son Single 19 Cotton Grinder Ashton under Lyne,
William Burgess Son Single 16 Piecer Cotton Mill Ashton under Lyne,
John Burgess Son 13 Piecer Cotton Mill Ashton under Lyne,
James Burgess Son 9 Ashton under Lyne,
Harold Burgess Son 5 Ashton under Lyne,
William Cheetham Son-In-Law Married 27 Printer Compositor Ashton under Lyne,
Mary A Cheetham Daughter Married 24 Cotton Card Room Hand Ashton under Lyne,
Alice Cheetham Grand Daughter 0 1901 Ashton under Lyne,

Note there is a brother Harold after James which fits with your information but James was born Nov 28 1891 so two years too old for James in America. I can't understand this as I am sure this is the family of William Burgess & Mary Jane Wild, as given at James's marriage.

Will have another think!
Elaine

Hi Elaine,
I'm not up with the acronyms. Very confusing! Everything else seems to suggest that James was born in a different year, but there is Harold. He is a confirmed brother's name.
Also, the Ashton under Lyne is where Sarah came back to.

 

[gibbo]

I wonder if any others immigrated?

Maybe his mother??

1910 census
Name James Burgess
Event Place New Bedford Ward 1, Bristol, Massachusetts, United States
Age 18
Marital Status Single
Race White
Race (Original) White
Relationship to Head of Household (Original) Son
Birth Year (Estimated) 1892
Birthplace England
Immigration Year 1909
Father's Birthplace England
Mother's Birthplace England
Sheet Letter A
Sheet Number 53

Mary J Burgess Head F 50 England
James Burgess Son M 18 England
Harold Burgess Son M 15 England

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M2NT-NJ9

 

[lyn somebody]

Hi all,
I have messaged my cousin in US to see if I can put any light on which James is which.
Also, I am travelling, which in Australia means we dont get internet.


Thanks again for your continued effort. Much appreciated.

Cheers Lyn

 

[lyn somebody]

Maybe his mother??

1910 census
Name James Burgess
Event Place New Bedford Ward 1, Bristol, Massachusetts, United States
Age 18
Marital Status Single
Race White
Race (Original) White
Relationship to Head of Household (Original) Son
Birth Year (Estimated) 1892
Birthplace England
Immigration Year 1909
Father's Birthplace England
Mother's Birthplace England
Sheet Letter A
Sheet Number 53

Mary J Burgess Head F 50 England
James Burgess Son M 18 England
Harold Burgess Son M 15 England

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M2NT-NJ9

This certainly works with our names and alternate birth date. I dont know anything aabout towns in Massachusetts, but my cousin (James' grand daughter) lives in New Bedford. Thats another tick.

On a completely different note, gibbo I just noticed that you live in Bundy. I live in Hervey Bay.

Cheers Lyn

 

[gibbo]

On a completely different note, gibbo I just noticed that you live in Bundy. I live in Hervey Bay.

Oh not far from me :biggrin: We only moved here about 6 months ago from Charters Towers. A big difference between the Towers and here but we love it here.

 

[lyn somebody]

Oh not far from me :biggrin: We only moved here about 6 months ago from Charters Towers. A big difference between the Towers and here but we love it here.

I imagine it would be different. We love Hervey Bay. Very humid this summer though. I am traveling down to SA at present, where I originally came from. Hopefully I will get a good look at dads birth certificate while I'm there!

Cheers Lyn

 

[stockpot]

post#51 looks good as I checked the family in UK in 1911 and the only son I couldn't find, besides James, was Harold. Couldn't find him dead either so it makes sense that he was in America.

Is there any trace of James's sister & brother in law, Mary Ann & William Cheetham living nearby ?

Elaine

 

[stockpot]

Travelling together on the Saxonia from Liverpool to Boston, 4 May 1909

Mary Jane Burgess housewife
James Burgess labourer
Harold Burgess student

looks like them but unfortunately doesn't give any more information.

Elaine

 

[stockpot]

Hi Lyn
you mentioned several siblings of your dad so I looked for Burgess births, mother's maiden name Wilde in and around St Helens/Prescot and all I could find were :

1929 Kenneth Burgess
1934 Denis B Burgess
1937 Sylvia B Burgess

I wonder if the middle B stands for Brown ? ( but it isn't in your dad's name)

The 1939 Household register has Sarah Burgess living with Arthur Brown (b.1897), one other adult and 5 people born since 1915 who are "close" i.e. no information available. These 5 will include Kenneth, Denis & Sylvia. I wonder if the other 2 are children of Arthur Brown from a previous marriage? We might know more after Feb 16th when it becomes free to see the entry properly.

I looked at the James Burgess that you said arrived in Southampton 1928. He did not intend to settle here permanently and was going to stay at the Royal Hotel Newport so not near Lancashire. He arrived Nov 7th 1928 and your dad was born between April - June 1929 so I don't think this was his father. There is no other James Burgess arrival that I can find that fits between Sarah arriving in 1924 and the birth of your dad.

will keep looking !
Elaine

 

[lyn somebody]

Travelling together on the Saxonia from Liverpool to Boston, 4 May 1909

Mary Jane Burgess housewife
James Burgess labourer
Harold Burgess student

looks like them but unfortunately doesn't give any more information.

Elaine

Hi Elaine,
Had William passed away before then? The 16/2 may be quite interesting.

 

[lyn somebody]

Hi Lyn
you mentioned several siblings of your dad so I looked for Burgess births, mother's maiden name Wilde in and around St Helens/Prescot and all I could find were :

1929 Kenneth Burgess
1934 Denis B Burgess
1937 Sylvia B Burgess

I wonder if the middle B stands for Brown ? ( but it isn't in your dad's name)

The 1939 Household register has Sarah Burgess living with Arthur Brown (b.1897), one other adult and 5 people born since 1915 who are "close" i.e. no information available. These 5 will include Kenneth, Denis & Sylvia. I wonder if the other 2 are children of Arthur Brown from a previous marriage? We might know more after Feb 16th when it becomes free to see the entry properly.

I looked at the James Burgess that you said arrived in Southampton 1928. He did not intend to settle here permanently and was going to stay at the Royal Hotel Newport so not near Lancashire. He arrived Nov 7th 1928 and your dad was born between April - June 1929 so I don't think this was his father. There is no other James Burgess arrival that I can find that fits between Sarah arriving in 1924 and the birth of your dad.

will keep looking !
Elaine

So that was 10 years after dad was born. Violet may have lived there. She would have been 23-24yo.

My dad didnt have a middle name. I will see if I can find out about the other two.

Lyn