Can an expert help me uncover this mystery?

[JefferiesFamilyTree]

Hello first of all i've made a few threads here regarding a few things, i apologize if i'm spamming the forums. I've literally been spending weeks trying to uncover this mystery but i'm unable to link it in anyway!

William Henry Jefferies is my great granddad and i'm looking for his parents!
His birth certificate states that his father is called "William Henry Jefferies" and his mother was called "Louisa Jefferies, nee Manley" - Of course i was excited as i had something to work from however i cannot find Louisa Manley and William Henry Jefferies (SENIOR) together.

I was in contact with a fair amount of people and one came back and told me what she though might of happened, even though it seems plausible i CANNOT get it to link together and i don't want to continue incase it's not the right person. To make things clear I'm focusing this mainly on "Louisa Manley".

This women who replied to me with information believes that Louisa Manley is a fake and the actual mother is called Emily Eveline.

This is a baptism for William Henry Jefferies (JUNIOR)
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-b...=pt&tid=80653223&pid=312007687611&usePUB=true

It states that Emily Eveline Jeffereies is the baptized mother however on the birth certificate it's Louisa Manley, this is the 1st thing to believing Emily Eveline is the mother.

Emily was Born in Fulham as a Manley and met someone named William Douglas, she married him:
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-b...=pt&tid=80653223&pid=312009600686&usePUB=true

I have them living together in 1891 HOWEVER in 1911 i have an Emily Eveline living with a William Heny Jefferies(SENIOR)
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-b...=pt&tid=80653223&pid=312009600686&usePUB=true

In 1911, William Henry Jefferies (JUNIOR) (My great grandad) was born to as i've stated William Henry Jefferies Senior and a LOUISA Manley, I havn't mentioned it but William Henry JEfferies(SENIOR) was living with another women aswell until he also cheated.. I honestly believe Emily Eveline and William(SENIOR) used Louisa Manley as some sort of disguise. I'm not sure why but i cannot find a link.

Emily Eveline continues to live with William senior and junior up until (SENORS) death in 1927 where he died at his home. Emily continued living here until 1939 where William JUNIOR met a girl and she also moved in. Emily Eveline moved out in 1939

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-b...=pt&tid=80653223&pid=312009600686&usePUB=true

AND

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-b...=pt&tid=80653223&pid=312009600686&usePUB=true


I can send you the family tree on ancestry if it helps, i have all records on each individual on there.

Thanks, hope we can figure this mystery out!

 

[ptjw7]

Some more grist for the mill!
1891 census
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interact...PUB=true&_phsrc=usH528&_phstart=successSource

1901 census
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interact...PUB=true&_phsrc=usH526&_phstart=successSource

1911 census
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interact...PUB=true&_phsrc=usH532&_phstart=successSource

This William Henry Jefferies marries Louis Mary Scarborough jun 1886 in Kensington

Also on the 1911 census she states they are living apart!

I think that you will be hard pushed to get to the bottom of your mystery as in these circumstances people were sparing with the truth!

You say that Emily Manley was born in Fulham but on 2 of the census it says Exeter Devon?


Peter

 

[ptjw7]

Just had a thought!

In your first statement "It states that Emily Eveline Jeffereies is the baptized mother however on the birth certificate it's Louisa Manley, this is the 1st thing to believing Emily Eveline is the mother."
If the birth certificate was applied for by William he could have said his wife's name 'Louise(a)' by mistake as she was his real wife!
This appears to be your stumbling block as it were.

Peter

 

[JefferiesFamilyTree]

Just had a thought!

In your first statement "It states that Emily Eveline Jeffereies is the baptized mother however on the birth certificate it's Louisa Manley, this is the 1st thing to believing Emily Eveline is the mother."
If the birth certificate was applied for by William he could have said his wife's name 'Louise(a)' by mistake as she was his real wife!
This appears to be your stumbling block as it were.

Peter

Thanks Peter, appreciate you linking those census however I already have. My confusion lies with emily. It's possible what you said on the 2nd post however how could one explain William using his ex's first name but his current gf maiden name?

 

[ptjw7]

If he was filling in the paper work where it says wife, he may have just filled in the name of his only wife! Why he then put down Manley I can only speculate.
I have known stranger things to have happened.

Peter

 

[JefferiesFamilyTree]

If he was filling in the paper work where it says wife, he may have just filled in the name of his only wife! Why he then put down Manley I can only speculate.
I have known stranger things to have happened.

Peter

Ehh i suppose, i'm gonna hire a professional, I've been stuck for too long, i can't uncover which path to go down. it could be Louisa or it could be Emily.. unless i have solid proof, i don't think i'm going to continue

 

[AntonyM]

The most important information in deciphering who may be lying or not is the informant column on the birth certificate - that, in conjunction with the names used can be vital in working out what may have happened.

Who registered the birth ?

 

[JefferiesFamilyTree]

The most important information in deciphering who may be lying or not is the informant column on the birth certificate - that, in conjunction with the names used can be vital in working out what may have happened.

Who registered the birth ?

I've attached the birth certificate.

 

[Ellie7]

You have to remember it is the Registrar that asks questions ,and the person registering that answers. All depends on what is asked.

My Mother in Law registered her husbands death Dec. 1946 and put down his father as Thomas Stuart Adamson, his name was Thomas Ernest Adamson ,and she was at his funeral the year before. Always spoke to family as name-Thomas Ernest Adamson ,so what a surprise when we ordered the Cert. She mentioned a Mary/Stella that she stayed with ,and my husband spoke about sharing a bed with a son ,and he light matches under the covers.
three under 5s sharing abed.
That was true he signed his Mothers death cert ,and was living in USA.
Found Mary Stella in the 1911 Census.

Emotions/nerves also play a part.


ellie

 

[Ellie7]

Have you his death details, and have you seen his gravestone.



ellie

 

[JefferiesFamilyTree]

Have you his death details, and have you seen his gravestone.



ellie

Not got his Death certificate but he died in 1990. i have the exact dates and where he was cremated. I contacted the place where he was cremated, he wasn't left a grave or memorial and the message plate had expired

 

[Ellie7]

I had to send twice for a marriage cert .First time they said wrong person ,second time they sent it out and apologised for the writing .They lived 2 doors along from her parents in 1901 /1911.

So it is the registrar that fills it in.

ellie

 

[Ellie7]

Have you found a marriage to a Lousia Manley. I'm not finding one .



ellie

 

[JefferiesFamilyTree]

Have you found a marriage to a Lousia Manley. I'm not finding one .



ellie

That's what i'm saying. This Louisa Jefferies, doesn't exist ANYWHERE on any censuses living together with the father, William Henry.

William Henry did have a sister named Louisa, possible some weird "incest" ??
If so, they wouldn't of put her name on the certificate surely?

 

[Ellie7]

I think as they were very religious at that time the Mother is the one at baptism. They may fib elsewhere but not in church. What woman would stand in a church and claim to be the mother.? Also I presume it was their local church and they would be well known. If Father was working and mother was not well ,she could have sent this Louisa to register the birth.



ellie

 

[JefferiesFamilyTree]

I think as they were very religious at that time the Mother is the one at baptism. They may fib elsewhere but not in church. What woman would stand in a church and claim to be the mother.? Also I presume it was their local church and they would be well known. If Father was working and mother was not well ,she could have sent this Louisa to register the birth.



ellie

William married a Louisa Mary Scarborough in Fulham,
Emily Eveline (baptizm mother of William) married a William Allen Douglas I believe. Emily was from Devon which I mistakenly said Fulham.

They both went their separate ways form their partners and met up together ( Emily Eveline and William Henry. ) It's possible this happened when they committed adultery.

 

[AntonyM]

I've attached the birth certificate.

So that tells you that the mother registered the birth, she was the one who gave the information to the registrar, and that she claimed to be married to the father.

 

[JefferiesFamilyTree]

So that tells you that the mother registered the birth, she was the one who gave the information to the registrar, and that she claimed to be married to the father.

This is the baptism 3 months after Williams birth, clearly states Emily Eveline as the mother. You believe Emily wrote her name as "Louisa Jefferies" because Williams fathers EXWIFE was also called Louisa?

 

[AntonyM]

The birth certificate also has the clues that she gave birth in the Brentford Workhouse. That may have been just because it was the medical provision for the area and not that she was an inmate of the workhouse. However, it also shows she was still there at the time of registration 18 days later which would be very unusual if she wasn't an inmate. Her "husband" is also described as "of Acton" and to add a location or address in that way is unusual and is a strong implication that she is not living with him around the time of the birth.

Have you checked what records survive for the workhouse at that period ?

 

[JefferiesFamilyTree]

The birth certificate also has the clues that she gave birth in the Brentford Workhouse. That may have been just because it was the medical provision for the area and not that she was an inmate of the workhouse. However, it also shows she was still there at the time of registration 18 days later which would be very unusual if she wasn't an inmate. Her "husband" is also described as "of Acton" and to add a location or address in that way is unusual and is a strong implication that she is not living with him around the time of the birth.

Have you checked what records survive for the workhouse at that period ?

I did contact London Archives and they said they couldn't find an Emily or Louisa. Perhaps the records didn't survive