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Can't find birth place or informations

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#1
Hi,


I got help in here a few months ago that gave me a lot to work with, but unfortunately I am in a blind alley again.
I'm investigating marriage and birth of my great grand parents. Maybe I'm lucky that someone in here can give me a new push in the right direction. I have found that my great-grandfather was born in Staffordshire around 1844, he was a butcher and named Charles Jones, ( looking for his parents too, but no luck ) he died early, probably before 1900. But he married the 3-year-old Ann MacPherson from Scotland, born in 1841. They lived in Worcestershire, Bromsgrove street, Birmingham. And there I stopped, because I can't find her in Scotland or in Birmingham, where I know they had 4 children and lived until they both died. I can find at little about her and some places she have lived with Charles and the children. But I wonder, because I can't find an Ann MacPherson, not her birth certificate or marriage certificate, it's like she doesn't exist and never married Charles. However, some of you have been helpful, finding her in Birmingham (Ann Jones). In my family, the rumor says she was born at Edinburgh Castle because one of her parents was working there. In April 2020 I will travel to Scotland and later to Birmingham, hoping that I will find something about her and Charles and other relatives. I start to think she might have a first name that she didn't used or that she had a middlename that she didn't use...hmmm...They got Edward Jones in 1867, then Clara Ann Jones in 1871 or maybe 1869, Walter Jones ind 1873 so maybe they got married in 1864-65, a few years before Edward's birth and they got their last child in 1878 and when she (Augusta Jones) was 22 in 1901 she and Ann lived alone so Charles was dead. I've received birth certificate at Augusta Jones ( she married Samuel Richard Sheppard ) to see if anything useful was on it, but it only confirms what I already know that Ann MacPherson is the mother. But the possibility that she may have been born in Birmingham I cannot rule out even though I have found out that she came from Scotland but could it be because her father was Scottish so she is registered as a Scotsman? Can anyone help me?
And can it be possible that the search records in Scotland are different and more difficult to use?
Have access to different search pages, paid and free sites, but I do not get the result I want.
And sorry my English, it's a little rusty.
 
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#2
Or maybe Ann MacPherson could have been born before 1841 because I have found her in 1901, and it says that she is 63 in 1901, and from Scotland, so could it is possible that she was born in 1838? And not in 1841? So Charles must have been born in 1841-41 if Ann is 3 years older that Charles.
She lived on Bell Barn Road, Blakemore terrace in 1901.
From Scotland and living alone with Augusta Jones (22)
 

p.risboy

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#4
1881 census.

Ann Jones
Age: 43
abt 1838
Spouse: Charles Jones
Where born: Scotland
Civil Parish: Birmingham
Warwickshire
Address: 5 House 34 Court Bromsgrove St
Marital status: Married
Occupation: House Keeper
R. D. Birmingham
Sub r.d. St Martin
ED, 18. Piece: 2985. Folio: 4. .Page Number: 2

Charles Jones 41. Occ. Butcher. b.Staffordshire.
Ann Jones 43. Scotland.
Edward Jones 15.
Clara Ann Jones 10
Charles Jones 9
Walter Jones 7
Cwesett ? Jones 2. (Augusta),??


Steve.:)
 
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#5
Yes, thank you :) I have all that informations thanks to you and some others in an older thread from april this year.:giggle:
But it is where in Scotland Ann was born and when did she came to Birmingham and married Charles, thats difficult for me to find out.:oops: it is like she has another name or something is missing.
 

p.risboy

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#6
JONES, EDWARD. mmn - JONES .
GRO Reference: 1867 J Quarter in WORCESTER Volume 06C Page 347

JONES, EDWARD GEORGE . mmn - SMITH.
GRO Reference: 1869 S Quarter in WORCESTER Volume 06C Page 272

If Edward Jones, c1866, Worcestershire, is Ann's son, I can't find a birth that fits.??.......Has anyone else.?

Ann, may have been married before.?

Steve.:)
 
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Ellie7

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#7
No she would not be down as born Scotland because of her father. Have you her Marriage certificate.Father's name should be on it .You cannot go my ages really ,could be a difference of 5 years at best.
 

horse

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#8
They got Edward Jones in 1867, then Clara Ann Jones in 1871 or maybe 1869, Walter Jones ind 1873 so maybe they got married in 1864-65, a few years before Edward's birth and they got their last child in 1878 and when she (Augusta Jones).
Something to ponder..

GRO:
JONES, AUGUSTA
mmn = MACPHERSON
1878 Q4 KINGS NORTON
Volume 06C, Page 445

JONES, WALTER
mmn = MASON
1875 Q1 KING'S NORTON
Volume 06C, Page 437

JONES, CHARLES
mmn = MASON
1872 Q4 BIRMINGHAM
Volume 06D, Page 104

JONES, CLARA ANN
mmn = MASON
1870 Q3 BIRMINGHAM
Volume 06D, Page 83

JONES, EDWARD JAMES
mmn = MASON
1866 Q3 BIRMINGHAM
Volume 06D, Page 99

Geoff

EDIT: x2 corrections
 
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horse

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#9
If Mason is correct, there is this. As Steve suggested she may have been previously married..

FreeBMD:
Marriages Q4 1865
Jones Charles
Mason Ann

Sale Thomas
Sumners Mary
Birmingham 6d, 121

Geoff
 

horse

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#10
If Edward Jones, c1866, Worcestershire, is Ann's son, I can't find a birth that fits.??.......Has anyone else.?
Yeah, not all the census info is consistent, 1871 Edward says he was b. Birmingham and 1881 Worcestershire :rolleyes:

So still conjecture until we can find some more common ground.

Geoff
 

Ellie7

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#12
AUGUSTA JONES
Birth year 1878
Birth quarter 4
Registration month -
Mother's maiden name MacPherson
District Kings NortonCounty WorcestershireCountry England
Volume 6CPage 445Record set England & Wales Births 1837-2006Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Civil BirthsCollections from Great Britain, England
This is what I found last time
 

p.risboy

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#13
If Mason is correct, there is this. As Steve suggested she may have been previously married..

FreeBMD:
Marriages Q4 1865
Jones Charles
Mason Ann

Sale Thomas
Sumners Mary
Birmingham 6d, 121

Geoff

This marriage cert is worth a punt. It;s the only one that may make sense of it. Could be wrong, but it's needed, if only for elimination. But then again it could be correct.
I would buy it, if it were me.(y)

Steve.:)
 
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#14
Thank you all so much, I'll look on that, so if I understand right, Ann MacPherson ( Jones) has maybe been married before Charles Jones ( she was older that him) and her married name before Charles was Mason?
Sorry for sound stupid :geek:
Can anyone tell me what informations I can expect on a death certificate if i order one? I found 2 Ann Jones between 1911-1913 who died in Kings Norton and Worcestershire. Could her fathers name og birth city be written there? Because in Denmark I don't think we do that, but maybe in UK you do?
 
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#15
AUGUSTA JONES
Birth year 1878
Birth quarter 4
Registration month -
Mother's maiden name MacPherson
District Kings NortonCounty WorcestershireCountry England
Volume 6CPage 445Record set England & Wales Births 1837-2006Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Civil BirthsCollections from Great Britain, England
This is what I found last time
Yes and thank you, I have the birth certificate from GRO but it only tells me what I did know :)
 

p.risboy

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#16
No fathers name on death cert. Just who died and where, and what of. Plus the address, and name of informant of the death, and possibly, marital status, and maybe husbands name, if he's alive....or 'widow of'.
Informatiom can be varied, depending on who the informant is on the death cert. If it's a close relative, it maybe more accurate.

Your best bet is to buy the marriage cert. as mentioned in #9.

Marriages Q4 1865
Jones Charles
Mason Ann

Sale Thomas
Sumners Mary
Birmingham 6d, 121


https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp

Steve.:)

//
 
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#17
No she would not be down as born Scotland because of her father. Have you her Marriage certificate.Father's name should be on it .You cannot go my ages really ,could be a difference of 5 years at best.
No, I don't have, because I can't find it and maybe I'm looking the wrong places or don't know how to look:confused: my guess is about 1865 they got married but I don't know where. I have contacted the archives of Scotland and they gave med many links and advise where to look.
 
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#19
No fathers name on death cert. Just who died and where, and what of. Plus the address, and name of informant of the death, and possibly, marital status, and maybe husbands name, if he's alive....or 'widow of'.
Informatiom can be varied, depending on who the informant is on the death cert. If it's a close relative, it maybe more accurate.

Your best bet is to buy the marriage cert. as mentioned in #9.

Marriages Q4 1865
Jones Charles
Mason Ann

Sale Thomas
Sumners Mary
Birmingham 6d, 121


https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp

Steve.:)

//
Yes I think so to, I'll give it a try :)
 
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#20
Just an update. I decided to order Charles and Ann's marriage certificate. And quite right, she stands as a widow (Ann Mason) at the age of 25 and Charles was 22 and they were married in 1865.
Her father's name is also there so now a new hunt for him (James MacPherson) begins. I just have to find Ann's birth certificate first, which is also difficult, so I can see who the mother was.
I have 1 question, I was convinced that Ann Jones was born in 1838 but it looks like she can also be born in 1840. She is 25 years old on her marriage certificate and then she was born in 1840?
Could it be because they did not actually remember their age / years in the old days?
 

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