Delia Byrnes 1891 census lookup request

[Purpurea]

Hi

I have lost count of the mysteries in the ancestors of our family and have tried in vein to find this lady:

She married in Rochdale in 1894 - Richard Kelsall - marriage address 2 Harriet Street [presume Rochdale!!!!].

She had a child by the name of Mary J Byrnes in 1886. A researcher did find a child by this name and age born in Manchester and later living in Rochdale - but not with a Delia - with a family called Walton. Could this Walton family be Delia's sister and brother-in-law?

The 1901 census shows Mary [Kelsall] living with Richard and Delia, along with sister Alice and brother Daniel. Mary died aged approx 101 - named Mary Byrnes.

The census shows that Delia was born in Dublin - father Daniel - but would love to find her pre-marriage in England, if poss.

I may just have to accept that I'll never find her... but one last chance...


WITNESSES: David and Alice Anne Thompson

 

[apm1181]

hi !not sure if you already have this but

is this her father daniel living in kidderminster 1851

if it is maybe delia is here and not in rochdale/manchester area at his time

Andy


Daniel Byrnes
Age: 55
Estimated birth year: abt 1796
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Bridget
Gender: Male
Where born: Limerick, Ireland

Civil parish: Kidderminster
Ecclesiastical parish: Kidderminster
Town: Kidderminster
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Kidderminster
Sub-registration district: Kidderminster
ED, institution, or vessel: 1g
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 78
Household Members: Name Age
Daniel Byrnes 55
Bridget Byrnes 54
Margaret Byrnes 19
Mary McKinna Byrnes 25
P William McKennon 2 Mo
Bridget Byrnes 21

 

[davelambert271]

Hi
I need some help on this one.
I have found that although Delia Byrnes says she married Richard Kelsall a year before Mary Jane was born, she did not marry until Mar 1984. Mary Jane was born 1888 in Manchester, Alice Ann 1895 Rochdale and Daniel 1897 also Rochdale

As Purpurea says Mary Jane (Byrne) 3 Niece, was living with Thomas and Mary Walton in 1891, Richard was single at home with his parents but I can't find Delia. Both Delia and Mary are from Ireland, Delia Dublin and Mary Wicklow. I don't know if these are the same area. Also there is an Alice Ann, dau of Thomas and Mary, aged 21. Is this the witness at Delias wedding now called Thompson.

I have been trying to find Mary's maiden name as I suspect it will be the same as Delias, but not necessarily Byrnes, I can see her on the 1881 census, married to Thomas. Their eldest child Alice Ann was born 1870, so she should be on 1871 census, but I can't find her, Nor can I find a marriage.

There are two marriages of a Thomas Walton, 1 Mary Pegg 1870 and 2 Mary Ellen Moredith 1869.

So come on if you want a brain teaser, help me make Purpurea's day
dave

 

[juliejtp]

Ooh may have foud something!

Marriage - 1868 - Thomas Walton - District Oldham Greater Manchester

Other brides and grooms listed.

Mary Burns (could the name have been mistranscribed)
James Earnshaw
Hannah Mills

 

[juliejtp]

I'm not finding anything at the moment, just a thought could Delia be short for Cordelia?

 

[stevegraham85]

I'm not finding anything at the moment, just a thought could Delia be short for Cordelia?

I've heard of that difference in the past.

Oz

 

[Purpurea]

Hi

Just read all your posts... It's like watching the pieces of a jigsaw fall into place. It's amazing. All sounding really good to me... As you say a proper brain teaser...

I'll have a good look at everything in the morning when my brain is less tired! But thank you all for the brilliant detective work so far.

And you always make my day(!)(!)(!)

Thanks...

 

[davelambert271]

Hi
I think I may have found Thomas Walton in 1871 and why I cant find his marriage to Mary. He could be married to Sophia aged 29 with children Sarah E 2 and Anna 7m. Thomas 22 born Spotland (right age, possibly wrong district) the others at Butterworth, both districts of Rochdale. If this is correct then his 'marriage to Mary if there is one', may be between 1872 and 1881 There is a death of Sophia Walton 1872 Rochdale aged 31 so this helps confirm the above (Thomas married Sophia Sutcliffe Sep 1867 Rochdale)
Edit - Sarah E and Anna seem to be living with grandparents in 1881/91. This also seems to favour that Thomas married again, but there may be a problem in that Alice Ann was born 1870 and John William 1871, whilst Sarah E was born 1869 and Anna 1871 Hope you are still with me!! If they all Thomas's children who was the mother

(Just to bear in mind - there is a marriage between Thomas Walton and Mary Berry in Ashton Dec 1879 ref 8d 665)

Why am I looking at Thomas Walton? because I suspect his wife Mary is related to Delia, and I am trying to find her maiden name, and hopefully family.
Hopefully it will turn out to be Byrne
dave

 

[davelambert271]

Hi
If Mary was not married in 1871, this could mean that records discounted before could now be applicable
1871
Mary Byrne 24 Ireland housemaid/nurse to John and Mary Ellen Arminson in Preston
1861 Thomas Byrne 21 Ireland colour mixer boarder - Mary Byrne 14 Ireland cotton Prover boarder to catherine Gaughan 44 wid. in Wardleworth, Rochdale
1851 - Bernard Byrne 29 Kelso, lodger, dock lab - Jane 30 Kelso - Thomas 6 Dublin - John 4 Dublin twin - Mary 4 Dublin twin - Thomas 38 Kelso, dock lab, married
No indication Delia was a sister, sorry. Mary was a twin so could she also have had twins

dave

 

[juliejtp]

The only way to answer what is Marys maiden name is to get one of the Thomas and Marys childrens birth certificates, preferably the youngest one.

I had a look on the Irish Family History Federation site, nothing came up for a birth/baptism for Delia Byrnes in North or South Dublin.

 

[Purpurea]

hi !not sure if you already have this but

is this her father daniel living in kidderminster 1851

if it is maybe delia is here and not in rochdale/manchester area at his time

Andy


Daniel Byrnes
Age: 55
Estimated birth year: abt 1796
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Bridget
Gender: Male
Where born: Limerick, Ireland

Civil parish: Kidderminster
Ecclesiastical parish: Kidderminster
Town: Kidderminster
County/Island: Worcestershire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Kidderminster
Sub-registration district: Kidderminster
ED, institution, or vessel: 1g
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 78
Household Members: Name Age
Daniel Byrnes 55
Bridget Byrnes 54
Margaret Byrnes 19
Mary McKinna Byrnes 25
P William McKennon 2 Mo
Bridget Byrnes 21

Hi Andy

Really sorry for delay. I'm afraid I probably didn't give enough info in the first place. Delia says she's 30 in 1894 at her marriage and 39 on the 1901 census records... So I suspect this Daniel is too far back...

 

[Purpurea]

Hi
I need some help on this one.
I have found that although Delia Byrnes says she married Richard Kelsall a year before Mary Jane was born, she did not marry until Mar 1984. Mary Jane was born 1888 in Manchester, Alice Ann 1895 Rochdale and Daniel 1897 also Rochdale

As Purpurea says Mary Jane (Byrne) 3 Niece, was living with Thomas and Mary Walton in 1891, Richard was single at home with his parents but I can't find Delia. Both Delia and Mary are from Ireland, Delia Dublin and Mary Wicklow. I don't know if these are the same area. Also there is an Alice Ann, dau of Thomas and Mary, aged 21. Is this the witness at Delias wedding now called Thompson.

I have been trying to find Mary's maiden name as I suspect it will be the same as Delias, but not necessarily Byrnes, I can see her on the 1881 census, married to Thomas. Their eldest child Alice Ann was born 1870, so she should be on 1871 census, but I can't find her, Nor can I find a marriage.

There are two marriages of a Thomas Walton, 1 Mary Pegg 1870 and 2 Mary Ellen Moredith 1869.

So come on if you want a brain teaser, help me make Purpurea's day
dave

Hi Dave

This is very interesting. It really does help for other people to look at the records. I never even though of Alice Anne Thompson being Alice Ann Walton!! But it really does make sense. Thank you for this and asking for assistance... as usual... it is really appreciated.

 

[Purpurea]

Hi
I think I may have found Thomas Walton in 1871 and why I cant find his marriage to Mary. He could be married to Sophia aged 29 with children Sarah E 2 and Anna 7m. Thomas 22 born Spotland (right age, possibly wrong district) the others at Butterworth, both districts of Rochdale. If this is correct then his 'marriage to Mary if there is one', may be between 1872 and 1881 There is a death of Sophia Walton 1872 Rochdale aged 31 so this helps confirm the above (Thomas married Sophia Sutcliffe Sep 1867 Rochdale)
Edit - Sarah E and Anna seem to be living with grandparents in 1881/91. This also seems to favour that Thomas married again, but there may be a problem in that Alice Ann was born 1870 and John William 1871, whilst Sarah E was born 1869 and Anna 1871 Hope you are still with me!! If they all Thomas's children who was the mother

(Just to bear in mind - there is a marriage between Thomas Walton and Mary Berry in Ashton Dec 1879 ref 8d 665)

Why am I looking at Thomas Walton? because I suspect his wife Mary is related to Delia, and I am trying to find her maiden name, and hopefully family.
Hopefully it will turn out to be Byrne
dave

Hi Dave

Yes I'm still with you on this train of thought...

 

[Purpurea]

The only way to answer what is Marys maiden name is to get one of the Thomas and Marys childrens birth certificates, preferably the youngest one.

I had a look on the Irish Family History Federation site, nothing came up for a birth/baptism for Delia Byrnes in North or South Dublin.

Hi

Thanks for your help. I know that Cordelia has been mentioned as a possible name - which seems to make sense - but I've also been told that the English Delia is Bridget in Ireland... I don't know if that is correct!!!! If it is it could become even more confusing.

 

[oznannie]

Hi all
Lancs BMD have a marriage for Delia Byrnes to Richard Kelsall
St Mary the Virgin, Wardleworth Rochdale 1894.
CE/12/5
Have you found the family between 1910/12?
ozn
Richard 41, Mary Jane 22, Alice Ann 16, Daniel 14.
in Rochdale rego.
Delia 46, bn 1865 in Ireland.

 

[Purpurea]

The only way to answer what is Marys maiden name is to get one of the Thomas and Marys childrens birth certificates, preferably the youngest one.

I had a look on the Irish Family History Federation site, nothing came up for a birth/baptism for Delia Byrnes in North or South Dublin.

Hi

It would be good if Mary was Delia's sister. The strange thing is though that Thomas and Mary had the following children recorded in 1881:

Alice A 11
John W 10
Daniel 7
Mary J 4

In 1901 Delia had the following children:

Mary J 13
Alice A 6
Daniel 4

Was it the norm for sisters to give their children the exact same names?!?! I suspect it may have become confusing at family get togethers - call one child's name - and two appear!!!!

 

[juliejtp]

Hi,

I've been looking for the marriage for David Thompson to Alice Ann but cant find one to Alice Ann Walton. The 1901 census gives Alices yob as 1860, 10/11yrs out. Found David in 1891 (I think) unmarried.

 

[juliejtp]

Hi,

This site covers Dublin plus Kerry, births, marriages and burials.

http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/

 

[Purpurea]

Hi all
Lancs BMD have a marriage for Delia Byrnes to Richard Kelsall
St Mary the Virgin, Wardleworth Rochdale 1894.
CE/12/5
Have you found the family between 1910/12?
ozn
Richard 41, Mary Jane 22, Alice Ann 16, Daniel 14.
in Rochdale rego.
Delia 46, bn 1865 in Ireland.

Hi

Sorry for the delay in responding.

Mary died in Rochdale as did Daniel. Alice lived in Rochdale until approx 1980 when she moved to Scotland to be with her son but she came to Rochdale to celebrate Mary's 100th birthday.

Richard died in 1932 but again - I can find no trace of delia...

 

[Purpurea]

Hi,

I've been looking for the marriage for David Thompson to Alice Ann but cant find one to Alice Ann Walton. The 1901 census gives Alices yob as 1860, 10/11yrs out. Found David in 1891 (I think) unmarried.

Hi Julie

There's a David Thompson married to Alice Ann Mills in Rochdale 1893 on the FreeBMD site!