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Eleanor (Susannah) Collins

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#1
I'm following a branch of my wife's family history as part of my family tree project and have come across a problem with her great-great-grandmother, who (on her wedding record) is called Eleanor Susannah Collins. On subsequent records (eg, census and her children's birth records), she is also given as Ellen and Elena - possibly because she was illiterate, given that her wedding record is signed with a cross. The Susannah only ever appears on her marriage record.

I'm trying to find her birth record and have come across a strange issue, and I'd be grateful of any advice that can be offered. On her wedding record (1865) she is shown as a Minor, indicating a birth year of 1844 or prior; however, on various census returns from 1871 onwards, her ages indicate a birth date of anywhere from 1842 to 1847. Again, this may indicate innumeracy.

I've done a broad-based search on FreeBMD and on FamilySearch and come across birth records for three Eleanor Collins that might work. The best two candidates are both registered in St George in the East (London), one Q2 1843, the other Q1 1845. The third Eleanor is registered in St George Southwark in Q2 1845. Ignoring the latter candidate, my immediate thought was that the Eleanor born in 1843 died within a couple of years, and the parents named the girl born in 1845 after her. However, the only death I can identify is an Eleanor Ann Collins whose death is registered in Shoreditch (which is fairly close to the church of St George in the East) in Q3 1845 - after the Eleanor born in that year.

So, my question is whether it would be possible/likely for parents in 1845 to register the death of a child some months after she died, and after they registered the birth of a second child? Has anyone come across anything similar?

I guess my next move will be to buy both birth certificates and the death certificate, but I'm hoping that someone can offer a logical solution and save me 33 quid in the process! All offers, as usually, gratefully received.
 
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Hi Steve

The father's name on the marriage record is James; she married William Bessell.

Since posting my question, I have turned up a census record for 1851 showing a James Collins, a widower, with a daughter called Eliza (8 years old so close-ish to my target). They are living in St Georges, Hanover Square, which is a bit of a stretch - although still 'Middlesex' - but what makes it interesting is that in 1851, James gives his occupation as Coachman and on Eleanor's marriage record, her father's occupation is 'Carman', which is more or less the same thing.

Eliza=Eleanor/Coachman=Carman? What do you think - Straws being clutched at?
 

p.risboy

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Have you tried the GRO for mothers maiden name. Then look for a marriage for James Collins to the maiden names given. Will be a bit of a trawl.

Are you assuming Eliza(8 years old) is a sister of Eleanor Susannah, or Eleanor herself. Yes, Carman/Coachman the same.

I've been looking for baptisms in London to no avail. Ancestree is running slow again.

Steve.:)

//
 

gibbo

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Any witness names on the marriage cert. that could help find more info on her or could help narrow down things a bit, eg, relatives sometimes were witnesses etc
 
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Hi Steve

Apologies for the delay in replying.

1. I am assuming that 'Eliza' is Eleanor and that she decided to use the name Eleanor when she got married (possibly because her husband William had a sister called Eliza). More straw-clutching. On the other hand, I have found Eliza's baptism record, which throws up more questions: she was baptised on the same date - 13 July 1844 - as her brother, also James. However, on the 1851 census, he is given as 10yo, and Eliza 8yo; whereas on the baptism record, his DOB is given as 11 Aug 1843, while hers is 7 June 1841, making their ages exactly transposed. On the baptism record, father James describes himself as a carman - the same as on Eleanor's marriage record - rather than coachman, as on the census. Another clue, maybe, although it was a reasonably common trade in the 1840s. Her mother was also Eliza.

2. The witness names idea is a good one except that the witness for Eliza/Eleanor has a virtually unreadable surname. Forenames are great: Emma Jemima. However the surname could be Latchford, or Luckchsord or Luelchford - it's just not clear.

It may be that I shall have to give up on this, unless you have any other thoughts.

Thanks again for the advice
Martyn
 
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#8
Thanks for the encouragement, Gibbo. No occupation for Eleanor, although that is not really surprising in mid-19th century England.

I will keep plugging away, but for the moment I am concentrating on her husband's antecedents. But I shall return!
 

horse

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Any witness names on the marriage cert. that could help find more info on her or could help narrow down things a bit, eg, relatives sometimes were witnesses etc
2. The witness names idea is a good one except that the witness for Eliza/Eleanor has a virtually unreadable surname. Forenames are great: Emma Jemima. However the surname could be Latchford, or Luckchsord or Luelchford - it's just not clear.
The other witness, 'W Williams' is likley to be a church official as his signature appears on other records.

Attachment is a partial copy of the page and includes the witnesses for ID purposess, it may help to identify Emma..

Geoff
 

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MartynWilson99

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#10
Hi Geoff

Thanks for this: I've got this record, but I'm curious about what you said about W Williams, as I can't find his name on any other marriage records on the same page.

However, as you can see, a bigger problem is Emma Jemima - what on earth is that surname? She had worse handwriting than mine! I have, incidentally, tried doing a census search for both 1861 and 1871 returns, looking for "Emma Jemima L*****" but not turned up anything remotely close to that.

Thanks again for thinking of/for me.

Martyn
 
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gibbo

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I have been mucking around with the surname for Emma and can not find one that fits. Luetchford is a surname with some entries in the free bmd but no birth/marriage or deaths for a Emma Luetchford tho there is a Emily Luetchford.
 

horse

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Thanks for this: I've got this record, but I'm curious about what you said about W Williams, as I can't find his name on any other marriage records on the same page.
Hi Martyn

Not on the pages showing the Bessell marriage, one on page 25 and one on page 30. If you don't have access, just say and I'll show you examples..

Geoff
 

MartynWilson99

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I have been mucking around with the surname for Emma and can not find one that fits. Luetchford is a surname with some entries in the free bmd but no birth/marriage or deaths for a Emma Luetchford tho there is a Emily Luetchford.
Hi Gibbo

I hadn't thought of that approach, but thanks to your idea I did a search on Ancestry and found a candidate. Emma Jemima Michie, born Lambeth in about 1826, married Henry Alexander Luetchford 18 May 1844. In 1861 she was living with her husband and family in Newington, London, which is where Eleanor Collins married William Bessell in 1865. By 1871, the Luetchford family were living in Camberwell, while the Bessells were in Southwark - still pretty close.

I'm not sure how far further that takes the search, but it's a fascinating game of hide and seek - at 160 years' distance!

Martyn
 

horse

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There are trees on Anc. for Henry/Emma.. A quick search of the trees reveals no 'Bessell' there are 'Collins' in them, but look to be too late, unless I've overlooked something. May be worth browsing some of the more well-sourced trees for clues.

Geoff
 

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