Elizabeth Cliffton

[robert shaw]

Elizabeth Clifford

well yet again im requesting help if theres anyone who can..

i now know that my great great grandfather married elizabeth clifford in manchester in 1845. her father was samuel - a stocking weaver.

throughout her census years (minus 1861 where shes not there) after marriage to edwin where they lived in borrowash - she insists she was born in (neighbouring) spondon, derby.

now i cannot locate her anywhere on the 1841 census, i cannot find her being part of 5 families that lived in spondon in the 1820's - 30's.

i cannot find any birth for an elizabeth anywhere to a father samuel.

i cannot find a samuel marriage that i can confirm had an elizabeth and who was a weaver/stocking or other type of mill worker.

all the known records suggest she was born in spondon in 1827 and her father was samuel - i can find nothing else!

if anyones got any further ideas or has ancestry (something might be on that) on where i can discover her christening/birth and samuels marriage i would be grateful

thanks.

 

[Ladybird1300]

Hi Robert,

I haven't found a baptism for Elizabeth, but when you research before registration, records are not always where you expect to find them. It's worth looking in neighbouring parishes.
I have found two other baptisms which may be of interest:

Name: Jane Clifford
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 10 Dec 1826
Baptism Place: Quarndon, Quarndon, Derbyshire, England
Father: Samuel Clifford
Mother: Hannah Clifford
FHL Film Number: 1041444

Name: Fanny Clifford
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 22 Feb 1824
Baptism Place: Quarndon, Quarndon, Derbyshire, England
Father: Saml Clifford
Mother: Hannah Clifford
FHL Film Number: 1041444

The only Elizabeth I could find was this one:

Name: Elizabeth Clifford
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 14 Sep 1823
Baptism Place: Kedleston, Kedleston, Derbyshire, England
Father: Thos Clifford
Mother: Mary Clifford
FHL Film Number: 1041447


There is always a possibility that Samuel and Thomas are related


Amanda

 

[robert shaw]

Hi Robert,

I haven't found a baptism for Elizabeth, but when you research before registration, records are not always where you expect to find them. It's worth looking in neighbouring parishes.
I have found two other baptisms which may be of interest:

Name: Jane Clifford
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 10 Dec 1826
Baptism Place: Quarndon, Quarndon, Derbyshire, England
Father: Samuel Clifford
Mother: Hannah Clifford
FHL Film Number: 1041444

Name: Fanny Clifford
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 22 Feb 1824
Baptism Place: Quarndon, Quarndon, Derbyshire, England
Father: Saml Clifford
Mother: Hannah Clifford
FHL Film Number: 1041444

The only Elizabeth I could find was this one:

Name: Elizabeth Clifford
Gender: Female
Baptism Date: 14 Sep 1823
Baptism Place: Kedleston, Kedleston, Derbyshire, England
Father: Thos Clifford
Mother: Mary Clifford
FHL Film Number: 1041447


There is always a possibility that Samuel and Thomas are related


Amanda

yep i know of a samuel marrying hannah in 1810, they lived at quarndon (near kedleston) and had kids from 1813 - 1834. there is a gap where 'elizabeth' 1827 could be... and they have 'fanny' (elizabeths first born daughter was fanny vickers).

but if this was her family, why wasnt she christened? and on the 1841 census samuel was and agricultural labourer, not a stocking weaver her 1845 marriage says he was.

somehow the cliffords seem to have slipped through the net, no christening, no census for 1841 (edwin was on the census, so she must have been local to meet and marry in 4 years id have thought).

 

[Ladybird1300]

It may not be she wasn't baptised, it may be the baptism is missing or damaged.
I have a problem similar to that, I know my g g grandfather's parents were Henry and Mary Rudman, but I will never know Mary's maiden name because the original marriage record is missing, there isn't anything that can be done about that, just very unfortunate. sadly these things happen

Amanda

 

[robert shaw]

It may not be she wasn't baptised, it may be the baptism is missing or damaged.
I have a problem similar to that, I know my g g grandfather's parents were Henry and Mary Rudman, but I will never know Mary's maiden name because the original marriage record is missing, there isn't anything that can be done about that, just very unfortunate. sadly these things happen

Amanda

yeah i guess its lost or damaged, but, why is there no census for her/her dad in 1841?

ive found several clifford families with a 'fanny' in them, so somewhere up the line there must have been a noteable fanny.

 

[robert shaw]

Re: Elizabeth Clifford

D'OH! just noticed i called her cliffton not clifford!

funny...i went to edit - advanced - changed the title from cliffton to clifford - saved changes .... and its not changed... how odd.

 

[Ladybird1300]

Yes someone showed a damaged 1841 census the other day, only half the page was there. It has also been said, that not all records are online. I think that could be right, I'm sure I've seen some records at the office that aren't on t'internet, can make searching very difficult.
I did notice the name, but I knew who you meant

Amanda

 

[Ladybird1300]

So this won't be her in 1841 then??

Name: Elizabeth Clifford
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1821
Gender: Female
Where born: Derbyshire, England
Civil Parish: Aston Upon Trent
Hundred: Morlestone and Litchurch
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England
Registration district: Shardlow
Sub-registration district: Shardlow
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 188
Book: 7
Folio: 14
Page Number: 23
Household Members:
Name Age
Samuel Clifford 50
Ann Clifford 45
William Clifford 30
Elizabeth Clifford 20
Mary Ann Clifford 15
John Clifford 20
Katie Clifford 15

This Elizabeth isn't with her family in the 1851 census, assuming she married after this one.

Amanda

 

[robert shaw]

So this won't be her in 1841 then??

Name: Elizabeth Clifford
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1821
Gender: Female
Where born: Derbyshire, England
Civil Parish: Aston Upon Trent
Hundred: Morlestone and Litchurch
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England
Registration district: Shardlow
Sub-registration district: Shardlow
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 188
Book: 7
Folio: 14
Page Number: 23
Household Members:
Name Age
Samuel Clifford 50
Ann Clifford 45
William Clifford 30
Elizabeth Clifford 20
Mary Ann Clifford 15
John Clifford 20
Katie Clifford 15

This Elizabeth isn't with her family in the 1851 census, assuming she married after this one.

Amanda

well aston is about 8 miles away from spondon, and the age is very out with her declared and consistent age (and birthplace) . theres no mill at aston (samuel was a stocking weaver) i didnt find this record either.... oddly... ill investigate, it might be the right one ,

 

[barbarajoh]

He was probably a stocking weaver in his house. And ages can be out by a lot especially in the 41. Amanda looks to have found a likely one.

 

[robert shaw]

He was probably a stocking weaver in his house. And ages can be out by a lot especially in the 41. Amanda looks to have found a likely one.

hmmm possible, i have to investigate further and see if theres a link to spondon and 'fanny' . ive found a lot of discrepancy in ages, but never 7 years! i agree its a possibility but there are questions i need to find the answers to before im confident enough to delve back further.

 

[robert shaw]

So this won't be her in 1841 then??

Name: Elizabeth Clifford
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1821
Gender: Female
Where born: Derbyshire, England
Civil Parish: Aston Upon Trent
Hundred: Morlestone and Litchurch
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England
Registration district: Shardlow
Sub-registration district: Shardlow
Neighbors: View others on page
Piece: 188
Book: 7
Folio: 14
Page Number: 23
Household Members:
Name Age
Samuel Clifford 50
Ann Clifford 45
William Clifford 30
Elizabeth Clifford 20
Mary Ann Clifford 15
John Clifford 20
Katie Clifford 15

This Elizabeth isn't with her family in the 1851 census, assuming she married after this one.

Amanda

hold on a mo..... (was out all day yesterday, hence only a breif look)

those ages are suspicious! were they REALLY all born to the nearest 5 year? lol

 

[robert shaw]

ok after a bit of checking.... NOPE this isnt 'my' elizabeth clifford.

this one was christened in november 1817, in aston (shardlow where they lived didnt have a church then, they used nearby aston). i cannot believe future dob would be 10 years out, and 8 odd miles out.

samuel lived at shardlow and was a boatwright, not a stocking weaver.

there is no connection to 'fanny'.

there is no connection to spondon.

i had seen this census entry, it was for shardlow, the uks biggest inland port (18th cent) not aston.

appreciate the comments, very much, but i dont think this elizabeth is mine - the info simply doesnt fit.

 

[barbarajoh]

back to the drawing board then!

 

[barbarajoh]

Did you say you hadn't found her in 61 -not that it helps!

Shacklecross, Ockbrook
Edwin Hill Head Married Male 36 1825 Over Looker In A Cotton Facotry Local Methodist### Ockbrook, Derbyshire, England
Elizth Hill Wife Married Female 35 1826 - Derbyshire, England
Fanny W Hill Daughter Unmarried Female 15 1846 Cotton Factory Worker Ockbrook, Derbyshire, England Rowland Hill Son - Male 7 1854 Scholar Ockbrook, Derbyshire, England Transcription
Edwin Hill Son - Male 6 1855 Scholar Ockbrook, Derbyshire, England
Maria Hill Daughter - Female 11 1850 Scholar Ockbrook, Derbyshire, England
Andrew Hill Son - Male 4 1857 - Ockbrook, Derbyshire, England
George Hill Son - Male 2 1859 - Ockbrook, Derbyshire,

 

[barbarajoh]

Where does the Vickers come from, Robert, do you know?

 

[barbarajoh]

This is too much of a coincidence?

Samuel
Last name Foulds
*** Male
Marital status Single
Marriage year 1826
Marriage date 27 Mar 1826
Marriage place Spondon, Spondon, Derbyshire, England
Spouse's first name(s) Ann
Spouse's last name Clifford
Spouse's *** Female
Spouse's marital status Single
Place Spondon
County Derbyshire
Country England
Record set Derbyshire Marriage Index 1538-1910
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Marriages & divorces
Collections from Great Britain

This couple had a daughter Elizabeth baptised 22.4.1827 at Spondon.

Samuel was a "stockiner" when Elizabeth was baptised.

 

[barbarajoh]

1841 - names very similar

Samuel Foulds Male 45 1796 -
Ann Foulds Female 35 1806 Derbyshire, England
Elizabeth Foulds Female 14 1827 Derbyshire, England
Fanny Foulds Female 13 1828 Derbyshire, England
Maria Foulds Female 10 1831 -
Edward Foulds Male 8 1833 Derbyshire, England
Eli Foulds Male 5 1836 Derbyshire, England
Catherine Foulds Female 3 1838 Derbyshire,
At Brook Walk, All Saints Derby
Samuel not born in county and is a Frame WK

I believe this is Elizabeth but can't prove it to you and no idea why she was using her mother's maiden name when she married.

Barbara

 

[Ladybird1300]

1841 - names very similar

Samuel Foulds Male 45 1796 -
Ann Foulds Female 35 1806 Derbyshire, England
Elizabeth Foulds Female 14 1827 Derbyshire, England
Fanny Foulds Female 13 1828 Derbyshire, England
Maria Foulds Female 10 1831 -
Edward Foulds Male 8 1833 Derbyshire, England
Eli Foulds Male 5 1836 Derbyshire, England
Catherine Foulds Female 3 1838 Derbyshire,
At Brook Walk, All Saints Derby
Samuel not born in county and is a Frame WK

I believe this is Elizabeth but can't prove it to you and no idea why she was using her mother's maiden name when she married.

Barbara

Looks like a good find there Barbara

Amanda

 

[barbarajoh]

We will see if Robert agrees, Amanda! Glad you do

Barbara