Fitzgerald

[JulesSmith]

Can anyone help to confirm that I have this right and that I'm not just seeing what I want to see. This is my brickwall family. Too many William's so I've numbered them

CERTIFICATE David Charles Fitzgerald bn 31/07/1905 kensington to William (1) and Mary Ann Leary. Father deceased - father's occ general carman

I cannot find a death for William (1) even though in theory he had only a 9 month gap to die in before David's birth


CERTIFICATE Marriage of William (1) to Mary Ann Leary 4/06/1889 St Francis of Assisi, Kensington. Occ Mail cart driver. Address Portland Rd, Notting Hill
Father of groom: William (2)- agent for the Brompton County Court
FAther of bride: Denis- labourer. Address of bride 61 St Clements Rd
I think both of these addresses are boarding houses.


I found a census return for 1891 which could be William (1) and Mary Ann, (not sure what details I can put on here but his occupation is Mail Cart Driver). On it they have a son William bn 1889 Kensington, so I ordered a birth cert.
William bn 15/12/1889 Bomore Rd, Kensington. Father general carman. Address 61 St Clements Rd. Mother Marian formerly O'Leary

Do you think these are the parents of David??? Do you think I've found the first of David's siblings?

Now it gets a bit flakey

I found a 1871 census which could be for William (1) bn 1867, but the father is a policeman, do you think he could have gone from Policeman to court agent?

On the basis of this! I sent off for a birth cert for William (1)

CERTIFICATE William (1) bn 20/11/1867 St Luke, Chelsea to William (2) and Ellen Moynihan.
Father's occ Policeman.

do you think I've jumped too high?


I think William (2) was born in Ireland as was Ellen.
I cannot find a marriage for William (2) and Ellen. I guess they could have gotten married in Ireland then come over. Only marriage I found was in Greenwich and it's def not that one.

 

[DaveHam9]

Hello Jules,

Several things. This is a curiously late registration:

Births Dec 1905
Fitzgerald David Charles Kensington 1a 79

I agree, even allowing for a late registration, that there is no sign of a death for William (1).

Do you think these are the parents of David Do you think I've found the first of David's siblings?

I would say, yes, yes but I'd like the opinion of other members too.

I'd not worry about the Mary Ann & Marian difference. I've seen that before.

Do you have anything from the birth or marriage certificate to indicate date and place of birth for William (1)?

If not then I'd not jump to William b. 1867 based on the name and the 1871 census listing only. There are way too many William FITZGERALDs born in England alone between 1860 and 1870.

Regards,

Dave

 

[JulesSmith]

Do you have anything from the birth or marriage certificate to indicate date and place of birth for William (1)?

If not then I'd not jump to William b. 1867 based on the name and the 1871 census listing only. There are way too many William FITZGERALDs born in England alone between 1860 and 1870.

Regards,

Dave

Do you mean is there anything on William (1) records that can tie him directly to William (2) and Ellen?

Birth cert says born 51 Geep St, St Luke, Chelsea. I was hoping that parents names and father's occupation was going to be enough, but maybe not huh, you are right there were a lot of William Fitzgeralds.

his marriage cert 1889 says he was at 207 Portland Rd, Notting Hill. When I checked 1891 census his father William (2) was living at 155 Portland Rd. BUT I know these were boarding houses. So proximity isn't conclusive.

On 1881 census I have found William bn abt 1844 Ass Bailiff County Court living in Bangor St with wife Ellen, but no son William listed. - no help.

I have been banging my head against this brick wall for a while now and I dont have one positive piece of proof that I am following the right people.

I really would appreciate any new suggestions either positive or negative.

Jules

 

[davelambert271]

Hi Jules
there is a census return for 1901 thus

William 30 London Carman, LN&W Railway
Mary 30 London
Son 7 London
Dau 4 London
Son 3 London
Dau 5w London

to think about -
the dau 4 could be Mary and the dau 5w Bridget

If we add David 1905 and William 1890, we have six children. Another one died, leaving one more to find.

Mary Ann died between 1901 and 1911, possibly 1905, not William?
William and Mary were married 20 years (this probably to when she died so if they married 1889, did she die 1909?

Other than Williams death, everything ties up - sort of. was this an error and it was Mary who had died?

dave

 

[davelambert271]

Hi Jules

death

Mary Fitzgerald - b 1867 d 1908 Kensington ref 1a 58

did she die in childbirth, and was this the one which died?

ps - I would think a policeman could well become a court agent.

dave

 

[JulesSmith]

Hi Jules
there is a census return for 1901 thus

William 30 London Carman, LN&W Railway
Mary 30 London
Son 7 London
Dau 4 London
Son 3 London
Dau 5w London

to think about -
the dau 4 could be Mary and the dau 5w Bridget

If we add David 1905 and William 1890, we have six children. Another one died, leaving one more to find.dave

What a pain that the names of the children were left out, I've been thinking about this census for a while.

1889 Marriage - Mail Cart Driver

1890 (son William (3) b/c) - General Carman

1891
Wm 1868 - Mail Cart Driver
Mary Ann 1870
Son 1890 (William)

1901 -
Wm 1871 - Carman on Railway
Mary 1871
Son 1898
Dau 1897
Son 1894
Dau 1901

1911
Wm 1868 - Furniture Carman
Dau 1898 (Mary)
Dau 1901 (Bridget)
Son 1906 (David)

This could work !


On David's marriage cert 1937 it says his father is deceased - General Carman

 

[JulesSmith]

Hi Jules

death

Mary Fitzgerald - b 1867 d 1908 Kensington ref 1a 58

did she die in childbirth, and was this the one which died?

ps - I would think a policeman could well become a court agent.

dave

Might be worth spending out on this one, even if it's only to discard her death.

 

[DaveHam9]

Hello Jules & Dave,

Ignoring middle names there are these births for a William FITZGERALD in London area:

Mar 1867 St Martin
Jun 1867 Whitechapel
Dec 1867 St Luke
Mar 1868 Pancras
Jun 1868 Lewisham
Dec 1868 Shoreditch
Jun 1869 Kensington
Sep 1869 Kensington
Mar 1870 Marylebone
Jun 1870 St Geo East
Jun 1870 Bethnal Green
Sep 1870 Kensington
Dec 1870 Marylebone

The Portland Road bit is interesting but not conclusive. Where is William's death ? That's the certificate needed.

Regards,

Dave

 

[JulesSmith]

Hello Jules & Dave,


The Portland Road bit is interesting but not conclusive. Where is William's death ? That's the certificate needed.

Regards,

Dave

I just can't find his death anywhere.
I have one for the man I think is his father though Not much help is it lol.

this is why I've turned to you all for help, I'm just going round in circles.

 

[JulesSmith]

My leap from David to William bn 1867 was purely based on the info on David's birth and marriage certs. No census links that I could find, even 1911 is dodgy. So I'm really only going on occupation and first name.

I haven't found William bn 1867 on the 1881 census either.

 

[davelambert271]

Hi
Just for the back burner -

IF William was still alive in 1911, but died before 1937, there are two deaths,
aged 48 1917 Pancras 1b 58
aged 68 1937 Lewisham 1d 992
The first would seem most likely

1901 census - there is a Mary aged 3 who was an inmate in Kensington

dave

 

[JulesSmith]

Does LMA have parish records? I wondered if it is worth me writing down all the deaths for William Fitzgerald with a birth around 1867 and looking them up when I go up there in September.

Oh trouble again is that they are Catholic.

I think I might need catholic registers but know absolutely nothing about getting to see them.

I tried looking at the LMA site but I couldn't work it out

 

[DaveHam9]

Hello Jules,

One last thought. By process of elimination have you looked at this:

Marriages Jun 1888
FITZGERALD William Chelsea 1a 610
Hazlewood John Chelsea 1a 610
Morgan Julia Jones Chelsea 1a 610
Peachey Mary Ann Chelsea 1a 610

I don't have access to the necessary census records but it would be interesting to see if that William & Mary Ann are a match or not and if so did they have a son William.

Regards,

Dave

 

[JulesSmith]

Hello Jules,

One last thought. By process of elimination have you looked at this:

Marriages Jun 1888
FITZGERALD William Chelsea 1a 610
Hazlewood John Chelsea 1a 610
Morgan Julia Jones Chelsea 1a 610
Peachey Mary Ann Chelsea 1a 610

I don't have access to the necessary census records but it would be interesting to see if that William & Mary Ann are a match or not and if so did they have a son William.

Regards,

Dave

I did have a look Dave, but I can't remember what I found (doh!) Will dig out my notes. I vaguely remember wondering if they were the one's on the 1901 census, but if that was the case, I still dont' know where mine are. I will have another look.
Thank you for your help, it is greatly appreciated.

Jules

 

[DaveHam9]

Hello Jules,

That's good then. It looks as though you have covered everything.

I would think a policeman could well become a court agent.

I agree with Dave but it's not the proof you really need.

I also looked for the William and Ellen Moynihan marriage in Ireland and didn't find it.

Regards,

Dave

 

[JulesSmith]

Hello Jules,

That's good then. It looks as though you have covered everything.



I agree with Dave but it's not the proof you really need.

I also looked for the William and Ellen Moynihan marriage in Ireland and didn't find it.

Regards,

Dave

Dave, are Irish marriages available for viewing?

The Greenwich marriage for William and Ellen can't be the right one, I ordered the cert (I have spent quite a bit on duff info) Wrong occupation, and living in Deptford which doesn't seem quite right.

I'm beginning to think I will never know if I have any family out there somewhere.

Thank you all for looking at this with me.

I have even tried looking for Mary Ann's family.... you can guess how far I got with that I'm sure :'(

 

[davelambert271]

Hi Jules

I think the 1911 census sort of pulls together all the other bits and pieces of info you have found. The length of time of marriage and number of children means the marriage has been in force since the 1880s which fits. With the 1901 census you have nearly the right number of children. What a shame the census taker was so 'lazy' by not giving names.

There is a census return for 1881 giving William 13 born Chelsea at Church End, St John Industrial School, (Industrial schools often got the birthplace wrong. Chelsea is next to Kensington where his wife to be was from) so does that give you him on all census returns from 1871. Ages, birth places and occupations all fit.
As far as the marriage of William and Ellen is concerned, I feel the one at Greenwich is them. The date ties in with Williams birth, ie he was born 1868, the marriage was in Dec qtr 1866. If they had just come over from Ireland, where would they marry from? some relative's or friends address. (Can you post the address and I'll have a look see if I can find who was living there) In 1871 they lived Croydon, but William and Timothy had been born in St Lukes, so it looks as if they were still not settled longterm. Occupations changed frequently unless a trade, so I wouldn't be too concerned if it were different.

In my mind, the one thing which does not tally is William's death. What are the chances of William still being alive after 1911? depends who gave the info on the certificate. We know Mary had died before '11, could it have been misheard and William was put down instead. My impression is it was a poor family, so what are the possibilities of them being illiterate, did they sign the certs, or mark with a cross? If people couldn't read, all sorts of errors occurred.

Thats only my thoughts, and may be completely wrong, so you must make up your own mind.

dave

 

[JulesSmith]

I think I've made a break through with Mary Ann Leary, stop me if you think I'm jumping the gun!

Mary Ann Fitzgerald nee Leary named as mother of David Charles Fitzgerald (birth cert)
Address 23 St Katherines Rd, Kensington

Marriage of Mary Ann Leary age 22 makes dob 1867 ish to William Fitzgerald - Father Denis Leary- labourer.
She was living at 61 St Clements Rd, Kensington.
Witnesses David Fitzgerald and M Fitzgerald.

I (spent more money on certs) have a marriage cert for David Fitzgerald and Margaret O Leary, thinking they are the witnesses (I cant even remember how I got to this supposition). Her father is Dennis O Leary - labourer.
She was living at 24 St Catherines Rd, Notting Hill.

Found who I believe to be Margaret on 1871 census with father Dennis Leary and for the first time twigged that her sister Mary A who was born 1867 could be mine !!!!! What do you think???

(please, please say you think I'm making headway) I know its mainly guess work but it's the best I have come up with so far. Also I've not got any further but I couldn't even find Mary Ann on census.

I thought Mary Ann was born in Kensington but 1871 census says Spittlefields. I have a copy of the cert for the only Mary Ann born in Kensington (can't find the ref now) and it's not her as the father is named as Daniel. But now I feel I can look for births a bit further afield.

The David Fitzgerald who is the witness is not a brother my Fitzgeralds, on his marriage cert his father is named as Maurice.

Hope you understand the logic of a desperate woman

 

[JulesSmith]

Hi Jules

As far as the marriage of William and Ellen is concerned, I feel the one at Greenwich is them. The date ties in with Williams birth, ie he was born 1868, the marriage was in Dec qtr 1866. If they had just come over from Ireland, where would they marry from? some relative's or friends address. (Can you post the address and I'll have a look see if I can find who was living there)

Hi Dave

The addresses on the marriage cert for William and Ellen:

William 101 New Street, Deptford.
Ellen 23 New Street, Deptford.

Thanks for checking.


William and Ellen both signed their names. What bothers me is in 1867 when their son William was born he was a Policeman and they were living in Geep St, St.Luke, but on the marriage cert in 1866 he is a labourer.

 

[davelambert271]

Hi Dave

William and Ellen both signed their names. What bothers me is in 1867 when their son William was born he was a Policeman and they were living in Geep St, St.Luke, but on the marriage cert in 1866 he is a labourer.

Hi Jules
Would you believe in 1959 I was a labourer in Hull, loading lorries with timber, but in 1960 I was a policeman in Howden!!! two years later was a Weights and Measures Inspector in Beverley and two years after that a Service Engineer in York. I have three children, all of which have a father with a different occupation living in a different place - That is true - nightmare eh!

dave