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Frederick Garner - 1911

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#1
Hi, I'm new to this, but have already hit a road block. I'm looking for the birth details of Frederick Garner born in 1911 and died in 1969 in Stoke-on-Trent, England. His death certificate is registered but I can’t find his birth certificate. I do know that he was born out of wedlock, so may be under a different surname? Can anyone help me to find more information? TIA
 

DaveHam9

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#2
Hello and welcome to the Forum


Born after the 1911 census which makes it a bit harder.

Sorry, that search found 3661 matches and the maximum number that can be displayed is 3000.
Frederick born in June Qtr of 1911 in England.

Deaths Dec Qtr 1969
GARNER Frederick 27My1911 Stoke/T 9b 1524

1939 might help.

Dave
 

oznannie

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#3
Hi Rainbow and a warm welcome. I found Frederick in 1938 as GAMER bn 1911 living in Stoke. It could be worth your while to pay the subs to F.M.P and view the information. Hilda M.F is also listed with 2 others which are closed.
Staffs BMD have a marriage in 1930 for Frederick to Hilda M Simpson at Christ Church Cobridge Stoke.
I hope I've been of some help.
 
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#4
Thank you oznannie and DaveHam9 for your quick replies. I have just joined family history uk for a month. that is where I found my grandad's (Fred Garner) death certificate, is that the same as F.M.P? Yes you are right with my grandad marrying Hilda :) My auntie (grandad's daughter) said grandad would never talk about his mother and apparently ripped his birth certificate up and he was reared by his dad eventually who was Charles Garner and he was born in 1890. So at some stage the mother must have given Frederick to Charles to bring up. I would love to find out where she was from and possibly why she gave up her son. I will pursue GAMER in the mean time. If you have any other leads or site that might help me please advise. Many thanks for your valuable time. :)
 

DaveHam9

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#5
If Stoke then possibly for earlier one

Marriages Sep Qtr 1900
Garner Charles Stoke T. 6b 313
Hilton Lizzie Stoke T. 6b 313
Rowley Samuel Stoke T. 6b 313
Woolf Mary Stoke T. 6b 313

If after 1911 then there are several in Staffordshire.

No reg in Jun Qtr in Staffordshire for a Frederick with name that matches mother's name in Charles GARNER marriages in Staffordshire 1911 - 1920.
 
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oznannie

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#6
Hi Dave Chas was born in 1890 and I think he's single in 1911. It's a toughie. There is a Chas in 1939 born 1890 with a lady Harriet. I don't think he's our man as he married Harriet Stuckey 1912 and they had 2 girls. Also Chas would be on his own if the mother had left him by 1939.
Rainbow fmp stands for Find My Past. Oznannie :)
 

DaveHam9

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#7
Very tough Ozn given the birth just after the 1911 census and a marriage anytime after that.

Copy of Death certificate ?

Dave
 

stockpot

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#8
Looking for a Charles Garner born 1890 living in Staffordshire at the 1939 register the one mentioned in post #6 seems the only suitable person.

32 Grosvenor St
Charles Garner, 30 Sept 1890, plumber & painter
Harriet Garner, 22 Feb 1891

Charles Garner married Harriet Stuckey Q2 1912 Stuckey, they had children in Stoke on Trent :-
Evelyn, b 21 Dec 1912, m Harry Boone 1941, died 1945
Frances, b 1920, d 1922
Maude E, b 1919, married William Lyons Q3 1940

you say your grandfather Frederick was eventually brought up by his father Charles, could he have been taken in to the above family? If he was born illegitimate in 1911 and then his father married another woman in 1912 the father, Charles, would then be in a position to offer him a home. If the mother was struggling to keep him on her own or if she wanted to marry but her husband would not accept her illegitimate son then in order to take him on Charles must have had a wife, in those days a man was very unlikely to bring up a child totally alone.

Do you think that the above Evelyn/Frances/Maude could have been his half sisters? Maude & William Lyons had children Evelyn A Lyons, 1945, and Denis Lyons, 1947. They may possibly know more about the situation. It may be possible to contact them at addresses on the current electoral register, please send me a PM if you would like help with that.

Good luck!
Elaine
 
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#9
Thank you so much for your time Elaine (Stockpot). My Charles Garner married Clara Mabel (or sometimes just Clara or just Mabel) surname Clowes in 1916, they went on to have 2 children together, Stan and Gladys.

In the 1911 census Charles was still living with his family at 267 Leek Road, Hanley, Stoke-on-Trent. I think when Charles got married to Ms Clowes he took on his son, Frederick then. So not sure what happened in the first 5 years. I am signed up to findmypast but I'm not sure if the 1939 register will help me.

I have in desperation just typed into the 1939 register , no names, dob 27/5/1911, male, county of staffordshire and I get 22 entries back for babies born on that day in Staffordshire. The main one that interested me was Charles Cooper, born in Stoke-on-Trent as I was thinking, the mother may have named him Charles and perhaps her surname was Cooper. But when I look on BDM on FMP there are no entries for this particular person. Although there is an entry on the 1939 register, but I don't know if I'm barking up the wrong tree.

Hope you are able to shed any more light, or any other avenues I could try. My auntie (Frederick's daughter), she is 85, would love me to unravel the family mystery.

And again thanks for everyone's help :)
 

stockpot

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#11
A difficult task!
I thought you had already found Frederick Garner in 1939 ?

214 London Rd Stoke on Trent
Frederick Garner, 27 May 1911, Boot repairer, own account
Hilda Garner, 19 April 1909
plus 2 closed entries, presumably their two daughters.

This household is indexed as Gamer but clearly reads Garner.

I can't think of anything else you can do here, it does seem to be a brick wall !

All the best
Elaine
 

stockpot

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#12
Charles's army service record (WW1) is on ancestry. He married Clara Mabel 18 June 1916 and was called up 24 July 1916. He gave Frederick as his son when he enlisted so was probably responsible for him from before his marriage. Possibly Frederick lived with Charles's parents until Charles could provide a home for him.

I checked all the Fredericks born Stoke on Trent Q2 1911, there were 27 of them. The Staffordshire birth index gives their mother's maiden name and none seem to have been illegitimate so it looks as if Frederick was born elsewhere.

Don't think there is much more that can be done here!
Elaine
 
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stockpot

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#13
YES ! GOT IT!

Frederick Garner Powell registered Q3 1911, Stoke on Trent, mother's maiden name Powell ( i.e. illegitimate )
ref :- RD Stoke on Trent, Vol 6b, P 430.

I realised that a child born 27 May could be registered up to 8th July and so could be in the 3rd Quarter, not the 2nd. Free BMD gives 30 Fredericks registered in Stoke on Trent Q3 1911.
Free BMD does not give the mother's maiden name but Staffordshire BMD does so I checked each one to find if any were illegitimate.
Free BMD just has the birth of Frederick G Powell but Staffordshire BMD also gives the middle name as Garner and the mother's maiden name as Powell.

You will have to purchase the certificate to find out any more but I think it would be worth it. I'd be interested to know what you find.

All the best
Elaine
 
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#14
Dear Elaine
I don’t know what to say. I can’t believe you have possibly found my grandad’s birth certificate :eek: I would have never have dreamt to look in the Q3 1911 and didn’t know that there were different BDMs, like the Staffordshire one. Yes Charles was in the army apparently around those dates. I am so hoping that this Frederick is my grandad. I will definitely let you know how I go on. Thank you so very much for finding the needle in the haystack and not giving up the chase. I am so very grateful for all you have done. I will be in touch as soon as I receive it (have just ordered it). Thank you with all my heart.
Amanda
 

stockpot

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#15
I was pleased to find it too! There are not too many potential Powell mothers so hopefully we will locate her in 1911.
looking forward to hearing from you.
Elaine
 
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#16
Hi Elaine
Have just been looking at the Powells in Stoke on Trent, not sure if I am doing the search right. But I have my eye on a Jennie Powell who was 17 in the 1911 Census and her occupation was blank but there is something I can't read in section 11, she was living in Longton, Stoke-on-Trent. I just thought it might be her as she was the only female around Charles's age that wasn't working (as she would have been 9 months pregnant, I suppose, in the 1911 census). I think I traced Jennie Powell back on the 1901 census as well and she was called Jane Powell and 7 years old then.

If the birth certificate is Frederick's, do you know how I can find out if he ever officially changed his surname at some point to Garner, or perhaps Charles got it changed for him. Will there be a list of name changes held and registered somewhere in the UK?
Many thank for all your help :)
 

stockpot

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#18
No, sorry, I don't know anything about official name changes. I would imagine if he was with the Garner family from a young age he would just use their name, especially if it was his middle name anyway but I don't know.

Jennie Powell is certainly a possibility as the mother. The note in column 11 refers to her sister who is a teacher, it is her employer, she has just written "Education" and the enumerator has added "authority, (county boro' council)"
Jennie lived about 4 miles from Charles but there was also Florence Powell,18, and Mary, 20, living very close to him in Handley so they are also possible mothers! Luckily all the potential Powell girls seem to have different names so there should be no confusion if this is the correct birth.

I was wondering why Charles did not marry the mother, especially as he ended up with the child. I notice he was a pottery packer but out of work and at home at the census. For a young man to be out of work was unusual, all his family were working. Also I notice that when he was called up in 1916 he was asked "have you ever served in any branch of HM Forces" and he answered yes, 6th Batt N Staffs Regiment. Do you know anything about that aspect of his life?

Elaine
 
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stockpot

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#19
Lots of information about Charles's army service on Ancestry, 3 separate files.

He enlisted in the Territorial Army on 26.1.09 so was a part time soldier, working at his usual job. When the war started he was mobilised and sent to France 5.3.15. Discharged on completion of his engagement on 25.1.16 and was then called up 24.7.16.

Demobbed in 1919 and then rejoined the TA on 20.7.20 as a sergeant.

Doesn't help identify the mother of his child but good background information !

Elaine
 
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#20
Thanks Elaine, for the information. Yes Charles did serve in the war, but we didn't know all the details, so thank you very much. Just waiting on the birth certificate now.:)
 

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