Harry Burgess & Laura Curbishley

[Debbiebee]

Hi, Steve, I'm sorry if this isn't the right forum to post this as it's not a direct reply to your question, but I'm new, be patient, please! I just wanted to say I notice your research includes the name Burgess - I know my Great Aunt, nee Laura Curbishley, married a Harry Burgess in the 1920s. That was in Cheshire. This may not be far enough back to interest you, or no help at all. Best wishes, Debbie

 

[p.risboy]

Hi Debbie,

I've moved your post to beginners help. I'll get back to you if I can help.

Steve.

 

[p.risboy]

I'm always interested in possible links to me.:biggrin:

When was your Harry Burgess born, and where.

I'll see if he fits in somewhere, or not. Assuming he was about 20 - 25 years old when he married, there are a lot of Harry Burgess around in the 1911 census in Cheshire.

He married in 1930, not the 1920's.

Harry Burgess
Date of Reg. Apr-May-Jun 1930
Reg. dist. Northwich
Cheshire
Spouse - Laura Curbishley
Volume- Number: 8a
Page-652

I can only see one Laura Curbishley, born around the 1900's, born c1906. Wincham, Cheshire, to a Fred & Mary Curbishley. Is that your relative. She was registered in 1905. Northwich. She dies in 1980. Registered, Vale Royal, Cheshire. d.o.b. 20 July 1905.

Did your Harry Burgess die in 1987. Registered Stockport. d.o.b 12 June 1906.


Steve.

 

[Debbiebee]

Yes, that's exactly the person! Sorry for minor error with marriage suggestion. Laura was one of my Grandmother Beatrice's younger siblings. She had an elder sister Lucy and brother Frederick Junior (who was injured but survived in WW1) and younger sisters Laura, Eva, and Vinicent, as well as two girls who died in childhood. Sorry I'm sure this doesn't interest you. I would really love to trace this line further back. I have found one reference to an Elizabeth Curbishley back in the 17th century who lived to be 90! But for all I know she might not be kin of mine. I really am a raw beginner, sorry! Thanks again, Debbie

 

[p.risboy]

Not a problem. Do you know when Harry Burgess was born for sure, or any other info for him, then he may connect us.:biggrin:

Forget any very early relatives who maybe connected to you, always work back from what you know for sure and confirmed. Do not use other peoples assumptions as fact, and rarely trust other peoples online family trees.
In general terms, you need three basic facts about any person you find, that is birth, marriage and death. The more facts/paperwork you find the better.

Just going by the census returns can be flawed, as a lot can happen in a 10 year time span. It's filling in those missing years that give you a fuller picture. Obviously, beyond the 1841 census returns, things will get a lot tougher, but not impossible.

Family 'hearsay' can be helpful, but can also be misguiding. Talk to any elderly relatives you have or know of, and take good notes. Also bear in mind, what they say is not always absolute proof. Seek out if anyone has any old family bibles, paperwork, letters, Wills, photo's.......copy anything original, that you can get hold of.

You can never have enough paperwork etc. Work on actual facts, and you should be Ok.
You will hit a brickwall at some point, and then the challenge is to go through it. Sometimes you can go around it, and then come back to go through it. If not, and you can find no possible evidence to go further back, then so be it.

You will still have 4, 8, 16, 32 or 64 Grandparents, to look for.......they double with each generation as you go back further.:biggrin:

There is a tendency to follow the family name/blood line, but all names in your tree are direct relatives/Grandparents, and they all existed for you to be here.

Verify with facts, facts, facts.......then you should be ok.


Steve.

 

[stockpot]

All good advise from Steve.

I have had a look at your family starting with the 1911 census when your grandmother Beatrice is ten and the family are at 21 Church St Wincham, her parents being Fred W and Mary.

Fred says he is 38, born Wincham, agreeing with what he said in 1901. Straight away this gives you a problem as the only Frederick William Curbishley born Witcham was baptised at Great Budworth 26 Feb 1871 so he should have been 30 at the time of the census. Do you go with this or get Frederick's marriage certificate to check his father's name?

If you accept that this is the correct Frederick his parents were Joseph and Martha, Joseph born Aston by Budworth 1842. Joseph's father was Samuel, a wheelwright employing several men, baptised at Knutsford in 1808, son of Lydia and Samuel Corbishley, a farmer of Over Tabley.

Of course you would need to check all this out for yourself, I have only had a quick look at it.

It might be possible to get a month's free trial on Find My Past, they make this offer regularly. That would be long enough to get your basic tree worked out and then you could cancel your subscription. I recommend FMP rather than Ancestry as it has a lot of Cheshire records that are not on other sites, such as the actual images of the parish registers.

Good luck with your search !
Elaine

PS, keep an open mind about the spelling of Curbishley, it was Kirbishley in the 1871 census.

 

[Debbiebee]

Thank you all for your help and suggestions. I will try to find out more about Harry Burgess but as unfortunately all my relatives even of the next (my mother's generation) have now passed away it may not be easy. The remarks about Fred Curbishley's marriage interest me as there is something odd about it anyway. I found evidence of it being a civil ceremony which would be odd in those days, and I know he was a religious man. Thanks again, I love this site. Debbie

 

[Debbiebee]

This is probably not any help at all, but I do seem to remember being told that Harry Burgess worked for a long time at ICI Middlewich. Sorry if no help, I don't suppose you can search employment records. Debbie

 

[p.risboy]

Firstly, you will need to purchase the marriage cert for Harry Burgess & Laura. This will indicate his age(hopefully) and his fathers name(hopefully), and precisely where they married.

This is a must, before searching for anything else. Too many Harry/Henry Burgess's to look for, without further details, which the marriage cert may provide.

Steve.

 

[stockpot]

The 1939 register for Church St Northwich has several of the family as Neighbours :-

17 Church St
Harry Burgess, b 25 June 1903 horseman on farm
Laura Burgess, b 20 July 1905 unpaid domestic duties
one closed entry

21 Church Street
Mary A Curbishley, b 12 Oct 1873, invalid
Lucy M Curbishley, b 7 May 1896, unpaid domestic duties
Vincent Curbishley, b 11 June 1912, domestic duties on farm

23 Church Street
Joseph Street, b 22 July 1899, cowman
Beatrice Street, b 23 Dec 1900, unpaid domestic duties
one closed entry.

This family at no. 23 are you grandparents (m 1922) and presumably the closed entry is your mother Mary b 1932. At a quick check the Street family should be fairly easy to trace back to Joseph's granddad, James, who was working on the Tatton Estate in 1863. This is now a National Trust Property and you could visit the farm there and get an idea of your ancestor's place in history.

(Again Find My Past is a great help)
Good luck
Elaine

 

[stockpot]

Re Fred Curbishley marrying in a civil ceremony, do you know the names of his two daughters who died young ?

Frederick William Curbishley married in Northwich RD Q1 1897.
a child Annie Curbishley was born in this RD Q3 1897 and died Q2 1900. If this was his daughter then maybe Mary was pregnant when they married, hence the civil ceremony.

Lucy was born Q4 1898 so it is possible there could have been a child before her.

Elaine
PS "Civil marriage or registrar attended" could mean they married in a catholic church

 

[p.risboy]

As close as I can make out, there is only one births registered in 1903 for a Harry Burgess.

Harry Burgess
1903
Quarter - Jul-Aug-Sep
Reg dist. Bucklow
County -Cheshire
Vol. 8a
Page. 211

Possible 1911 census.

Harry Burgess
abt 1904
Relation to Head - Stepson
Born -Peover Inferior, Cheshire.

Civil Parish: Plumbley Peover Inferior.
County-Cheshire
Address - Smithy Green. Lower Peover Nearr Knutsford, Cheshire
Reg dist-Bucklow
Reg Dist Number-445. Sub-reg.dist. Knutsford. ED-7. Piece - 21594

Thomas Bell..38. b.Nether Peover.
Sarah Ellen Bell 37. b.Plumbley, Cheshire.
Samuel Burgess 13. Stepson
Reginald Burgess 10. Stepson.
Harry Burgess 7. Stepson.
Janet Bell 2. Daughter.

Thomas Bell and Sarah Ellen Bell, married 3 years. 1 child born to this marriage.
Suggesting Sarah Ellen Bell was married before.

1901 census.

Sarah Ellen Burgess
Age: 27
abt 1874
Spouse: Henry Burgess
Birth Place: Plumbley, Cheshire, England
Civil Parish: Peover Superior
Eccl parish-Over Peover, St Lawrence
County-Cheshire

Reg dist-Bucklow
Sub-reg dist-Knutsford
ED-7. Piece-3330. Folio-36. Page-17. Household No. 110

Henry Burgess. 28. b. Ashton-Upon-Mersey, Cheshire. Occ. Farm Labourer.
Sarah Ellen Burgess. 27
George Henry Burgess. 5
Samuel Burgess. 3
Reginald Burgess. 9/12
Charles Taylor. 38. Lodger. b.Pickmere, Cheshire.


Steve.

 

[stockpot]

John Thomas Bell
Age 34y

Marriage date 04 Nov 1907

Marriage place Lower Peover

Spouse Sarah Ellen Burgess
Age 33y

Bride's father's name George Leicester

Looks like the correct marriage

Elaine

 

[stockpot]

Harry Burgess's parents :-

Sarah Ellen Leicester
Age 21y

Marriage date 14 Jun 1894
Marriage place Great Budworth

Spouse Henry Burgess
Age 21y

Bride's father's name George Leicester

Elaine

 

[p.risboy]

Possible death for Harry Burgess.

Harry Burgess
Born abt 1904
Date of Reg. Dec 1957
Age at Death - 53
Reg dist - Bucklow
County - Cheshire
Vol - 10a
Page - 120


Steve.

 

[stockpot]

only possible death for Harry's father, Henry Burgess :- Bucklow RD, Q1 1903 aged 28.

so when young Harry was born 25 June 1903 his father was already dead. Guessing he was given the name Harry because that is what dad Henry was always called.

How did Sarah Ellen manage with three little children till she married four years later?
EDIT, now found in 1901 Sarah & Henry Burgess were living next door to Henry's parents, Alfred & Mary so probably they helped. Alfred died 1907, wonder whether that prompted her to find a new husband!

Elaine

 

[stockpot]

so much information on FMP! Harry Burgess's mother and brother and half sister:-

1939 register
Smithy Green Cottage, Bucklow RD

John T Bell, ? Jan 1873, general labourer
Sarah E Bell, 19 Nov 1874, Housewife
Janet Bell, 13 Oct 1908, domestic servant (married name Pimlott)
Reginald Bell, 23 June 1900, Incapacitated

(Janet Bell married William Pimlott 1944, son John L born 1946)
This address is where they were in 1911, Smithy Green, Lower Peover Nr Knutsford, so is where Harry was brought up.

Elaine

 

[Debbiebee]

Oh, my goodness, all of you, thanks so much, this is quite a lot to take in for a beginner, but I appreciate it hugely. There are so many things of interest - I never knew about Annie! I always thought my Great Aunt Lucy was the oldest child in the family, but it would certainly explain the civil ceremony, as you say. I wonder if my Mum knew about it? Wish I could ask her!! The Bell connection is doubly interesting, as there are actually Bells on my Grandfather's side of the family, I have been told one of them was an undertaker, but I don't know about this as they seem to be mainly working in agriculture. I'm not at all surprised by the Tatton Park Connection, as my Grandpa Street was a keen and expert gardener, and quite a remarkable man in his own right, contending with total deafness in an era where there was less enlightenment about disabilities. I really will try to trace up more information to help you all as well as helping me. Please bear with me this weekend as I have to go to a funeral (a bit weird after talking about the possible undertaker connection). Not a relative, but someone who helped me when I was at a very low ebb a couple of years back.

Again, thanks to you all, this feels like a family of sorts too.

Debbie x

 

[Debbiebee]

Sorry, me again, brain even more like a sieve than usual today. The two little Curbishley girls who died young were called Maude and Bertha, and there was also a son who died in infancy called Gerard or Gerald, not sure of spelling. Once more thanks - I realise you're all helping me out with my relatives when I aimed to help out with yours, which is actually not likely given what a useless beginner I am.

 

[p.risboy]

Yes, all this seems to match up. But, to prove it all for sure, you will still need Harry & Laura's marriage cert for a start.

As sound as all this information may seem, documentation is necessary.

Steve.