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help or advice wanted - Barnet Burns

popsit

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#1
Hello,
I am wanting help with the following please. This borders on a brickwall for me as I have searched all my records and am hoping someone out there can help.

I have a Barnet Burns marrying a Bridget Cain, 1st June 1835, Christ Church Greyfriars Newgate, London. Basically I am trying to find out if there were any children for these two. Because in the 1841 census I find Barnet lodging with the Kay family, no sign of Bridget, however there is a woman named Rosina Crowther who Barnet marries by the time the 1851 census comes round. I found them lodging with the Pluck family and she is now Rosina Burns aged 50 and Barnet aged 44. These dates are a little out.
Am I right in thinking Bridget may have died between 1835 and 1841, was Rosina just calling herself Mrs Burns.

I am looking for any marriage between Rosina and Barnet and a death for Bridget. Of course Barnet could have been a bigamist but I am pretty sure he wasn't. If I am being to greedy out of the things above, I need a death or what happened to Bridget is the most important. Thank you.


Popsit
 
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gibbo

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#2
Re: help or advice wanted.

Interesting fellow this Barnet Burns.

I havent been able to find kids or a death for Bridget but did find these, which you most likely already have.

New Zealand

Wife Amotawa. The couple had three children – Tauhinu, Mokoraurangi and Hori Waiti

-------------------------------------------------------------------
On 1 June 1835 Barnet Burns married Bridget Cain at the Christ Church Greyfriars opposite St Paul's Cathedral but little else is known about this union.
Barnet Burns moved to France in late 1836.

If Bridget went to France with him she may have died there??

-------------------------------------------------------------------

On 22 September 1838 Barnet Burns married a French workwoman named Anne Mélanie Boval at the town hall of the 7th arrondissement of Paris.
Burns and his wife lived at 16 Rue Pastourelle in the 3rd arrondissement of Paris and had two children who, it appears, died young.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

In January 1842 Barnet Burns had moved to Birmingham where he lectured before the Mechanics' Institution at Newhall Street and where he had a booklet published. By that time he and Rosina had married ...


http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/artwork/30233/barnet-burns-pakeha-maori

https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Barnet Burns
 

popsit

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#4
Re: help or advice wanted.

Interesting fellow this Barnet Burns.

I havent been able to find kids or a death for Bridget but did find these, which you most likely already have.

New Zealand

Wife Amotawa. The couple had three children – Tauhinu, Mokoraurangi and Hori Waiti

-------------------------------------------------------------------
On 1 June 1835 Barnet Burns married Bridget Cain at the Christ Church Greyfriars opposite St Paul's Cathedral but little else is known about this union.
Barnet Burns moved to France in late 1836.

If Bridget went to France with him she may have died there??

-------------------------------------------------------------------

On 22 September 1838 Barnet Burns married a French workwoman named Anne Mélanie Boval at the town hall of the 7th arrondissement of Paris.
Burns and his wife lived at 16 Rue Pastourelle in the 3rd arrondissement of Paris and had two children who, it appears, died young.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

In January 1842 Barnet Burns had moved to Birmingham where he lectured before the Mechanics' Institution at Newhall Street and where he had a booklet published. By that time he and Rosina had married ...


http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/artwork/30233/barnet-burns-pakeha-maori

https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Barnet Burns

Hello,

Thank you for all the above, I could have told you all that but it would have been a large request. Yes I have researched him from my end through Wikipedia, He had two children with Anne Bovel who died really young. I have written to the maire of the 7th arrondisment in france to see if they had a proper marriage. I also have Rosina's death reg. from 1861 where she was living in Devonshire east Stonebridge as a widow and I have Barnet's death details in 1860. He sure did put himself around. Although when he died it states he left a widow and two children I am more than sure they were Rosina's children from a first marriage on her side.

I have tried and tried to find a death for Bridget also to no avail. I cant even find her alive anywhere. She does say she was born in Scotland but that would have come under England.

The woman he married here in NZ was a maori so I am not sure if their "marriage" was reg. in the proper way or being maori it was done through the tribe. Thank you for your time in looking for info for me it is much appreciated. Its as if she has vanished into thin air.


popsit
 

popsit

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#5
Can't find a death in France but there is this one on the GRO

Bridget Burns Sep 1839 St Olaves 4 307 age 34.

Emeltee
Hello,
Thank you for your reply. I actually have noted that very same death in her notes with a big question mark. At 34 she could have also been married before. Might have a look for any Cain children with a mother Bridget. In the 1851 census where Barnet and Rosina are lodging also lodging was a Charlotte Crowther aged 22 from Bristol, could have been one of Rosina's children, it just has her down as a lodger. Thank you also to you for your time in trying to help, it is appreciated.

Popsit
 

Ellie7

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#6
Re: help or advice wanted.

Hello,
I have tried and tried to find a death for Bridget also to no avail. I cant even find her alive anywhere. She does say she was born in Scotland but that would have come under England.
popsit
Scotland does not come under England in any Census ,and being a Brittish Subject usually means born abroad to a Brittish born parent.

Ellie
 

popsit

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Re: help or advice wanted.

Scotland does not come under England in any Census ,and being a Brittish Subject usually means born abroad to a Brittish born parent.

Ellie
So if say Barnet was born in Scotland from parents or one parent who was born in England, that's why the words "british subject" would be used, yes?. In the 1841 census Barnet says he was born in Scotland him being a mariner at the time and Rosina who he marries by 1851 is a pedlar. In all other papers I have he says he is a british subject. I am surmising that perhaps his father might have been the one from England as I think his father was a mariner too, and he may have met Barnet's mother in Scotland hence Barnet being born there. I think I found one other child (girl) who may or may not be his sister born around 1805 (Barnet being born in 1801). Me thinks I might venture further back a bit and see what comes up for his parents. Will go look at census in Scotland now. Don't you just love genealogy, thank you again.

Popsit
 

Ladybird1300

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#8
If George Burns son of George Burns and Anne Stewart is your man, he would have been born in Lancashire, as an earlier birth of a son George Burns was born in Kirkby Ireleth to the same parents in 1802.

George Burns and Anne Stewart were married in Kirkby Ireleth in 1801 according to Boyds marriages, which suggests they stayed in Lancashire from the time they were married. If Barnet was born in Scotland, then I doubt George above was the same person.

There is a burial for George Burns in Kirkby in Ireleth in 1831 aged 60. It could be his mother was Scottish, but nothing suggests Barnet was born in Scotland. I haven't found a death for Anne Burns or another marriage.

Amanda
 

Ellie7

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#9
As far as I am aware Brittish Subject means born abroad to a Brittish Father.I should think his nationality in those days came from the Father.I know Wikipedi says likely born in Lancashire. I am not sure who puts in those facts or where they come from.


Ellie
 
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Ellie7

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#10
A brief narrative
of a
new zealand chief,



being the
remarkable history
of


barnet burns,
an english sailor,


with a faithful account of the way is which he became
a chief
of one of the
tribes of new zealand,
together with
a few remarks on the manners and customs of the people
and other interesting matter.


written by himself.



Entered at stationers' hall

belfast:

Printed by r. & d. Read, crown-entry,

1844.
 

Ellie7

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#11
barnet burns,
an english sailor

2 brickwalls he has made there .

English sailor- 1841 Census born Scotland.
Change of name -also from 1841 Census.


Edit-'Pahe-a-Range'.-name change (Brickwall)
A lecture given in Chichester in May 1836 was described as 'one incongruous jumble of impudence, of ignorance, of low wit, and bare-faced presumption.'

Ellie
 
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popsit

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#12
If George Burns son of George Burns and Anne Stewart is your man, he would have been born in Lancashire, as an earlier birth of a son George Burns was born in Kirkby Ireleth to the same parents in 1802.

George Burns and Anne Stewart were married in Kirkby Ireleth in 1801 according to Boyds marriages, which suggests they stayed in Lancashire from the time they were married. If Barnet was born in Scotland, then I doubt George above was the same person.

There is a burial for George Burns in Kirkby in Ireleth in 1831 aged 60. It could be his mother was Scottish, but nothing suggests Barnet was born in Scotland. I haven't found a death for Anne Burns or another marriage.

Amanda
Have been away and was checking to see if there were any new posts.In answer to yours, I have found all the children anne and George had. The one born in 1802 also had a brother born same time called Robert. In 1805 another boy was born and they named him George hence me thinking the first George died (Going to look for his death) then my George Barnet came along in 1805. They had a Thomas in 1803, and an Edward in 1807, and a John in 1811. All boys no girls. All born in Kirkby. I will also go look for a George (husband of Anne) in Lancashire for a birth.

I found Anne living in Kirkby in the 1841 census with the Woodend family as a lodger aged 50/60 so it seems she died after 1841. I haven't been able to find her yet in 51 census, still have to look just deaths as she may have died between 41 and 51. Thank you.

Popsit
 

popsit

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#13
barnet burns,
an english sailor

2 brickwalls he has made there .

English sailor- 1841 Census born Scotland.
Change of name -also from 1841 Census.


Edit-'Pahe-a-Range'.-name change (Brickwall)
A lecture given in Chichester in May 1836 was described as 'one incongruous jumble of impudence, of ignorance, of low wit, and bare-faced presumption.'

Ellie
I see at the beginning you say two brickwalls he has made there. Can I say not as although he was born George he never used this name until his death when he has his full name that rosina last wife/partner must have known about and gave it as info for the record.
In the 1841 census he has told a fib or maybe he truly thought he wasn't fibbing although in the 1851 census he states he is a "British subject"

The name change of Pahe-a-Range' probably should be Rangi was given to him when he was in NZ living with a tribe of Maori who named him that, it was their maori name for him and not recorded as a proper name change.

Thank you for taking the time to send me your info.


Popsit
 

horse

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#14
Something to ponder if you don't have it..

Bridget Cain says she was a spinster when marrying Barnet..
Witnesses at the marriage = William Burns and Honora Riley
Barnet signed with his mark, as did William the witness.

Geoff
 

horse

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#15
I hope I have found the correct censuses in 1841 & 1851, Rosina quite a difference in occupations :rolleyes: But they appear to be the same people..

Geoff
 
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Ellie7

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#16
Something to ponder if you don't have it..

Bridget Cain says she was a spinster when marrying Barnet..
Witnesses at the marriage = William Burns and Honora Riley
Barnet signed with his mark, as did William the witness.

Geoff


Under the patronage of Lecesne, Burns went to the Lancasterian school at Borough Road in London.He (Burns)would have been age about 20?
Then was unable to sign his marriage lines.
To me he is a fake.

1841 Census IS George Barnet Burns ,with his future wife ,born Scotland. It is him himself putting up Brickwalls.
Writes his own history ,saying he is "English "born sailor. Then in 1851 Census uses the "Brittish Subject " as birth.I do believe he was in Jamica and came across people who stated they were Brittish Subjects. We had army there at that time .Could have been Lecesne himself who was a Brittish Subject. I believe he embroidered his life.

Ellie
 

horse

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#17
Unsure, Ellie...

There are some variations and possibly more than one Barnet :rolleyes:

Maybe I have the wrong censuses..

Geoff
 

Ladybird1300

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#18
I found some more information on FMP, I don't know if it helps or confuses the matter :rolleyes:

First name(s) Barnet
Last name Burns
Age 22
Birth year 1808
Birth place Newry, Down
Rank Able Seaman
Ship or unit Columbine
Location West Indies Station
Entry year 1830
Entry date 29 Jul 1830

Could be he was born in Ulster hence British subject :eek:

Amanda
 

Ladybird1300

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#19
Hello,
Thank you for your reply. I actually have noted that very same death in her notes with a big question mark. At 34 she could have also been married before. Might have a look for any Cain children with a mother Bridget. In the 1851 census where Barnet and Rosina are lodging also lodging was a Charlotte Crowther aged 22 from Bristol, could have been one of Rosina's children, it just has her down as a lodger. Thank you also to you for your time in trying to help, it is appreciated.

Popsit
I'm not sure the Barnet Burns in 1851 is the same one, if he couldn't sign on his marriage, I don't think he could be a lecturer 1851 census:

Rosina Burns Lodger Married Female 50 1801 Professor Of Music London, Middlesex, England

Barnet Burns Lodger Married Male 44 1807 Lecturer

I think Geoff is right we are looking at two different Barnet Burns.


Amanda
 

gibbo

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#20
There was a Barnet Burns, a seaman, in Australia in the 1830's.

The Sydney Gazette and New South Wales Advertiser (NSW : 1803 - 1842)
Sat 29 Jan 1831
Barnet Burns, a seaman of the brig Elizabeth, appeared on a summons to answer a very grave complaint, to wit, pulling the nose of one James Nance, of the same vessel. etc etc

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2198760
The Sydney Gazette and New South Wales Advertiser (NSW : 1803 - 1842)

Sat 18 Oct 1834
; bounded on the east by Barnet Burn's 10 acres

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2217342

Found this

CSreland .. NSW state archives
2/7815 1104 BURNS Barnet 1830 1830
 

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