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help or advice wanted - Barnet Burns

popsit

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#42
Not sure what to make of this.
National archives uk

Prisoner name: BarnetByrnes (or BarnetBurns).
Prisoner occupation: Hawker and pedlar.
Court and date of trial: Bristol Quarter Sessions [Gloucestershire] October 1823.
Crime: Obtaining money under false pretences.
Initial sentence: Six months imprisonment and fine £10.
Annotated (Outcome): To be recommended in July.
Petitioner(s): The convict.
Grounds for clemency (Petition Details): Dependent family; cannot raise the money for fine.
watching what is being said. My thoughts on this above is:

Very very interesting. He would have been around the age of 18, putting aside the bit that says "Dependant family cannot raise the money" because to my knowledge he had no family as in no children of his own then, however he could have meant his siblings and parents depended on him to bring in money to live on. Another strange thing is when he was lodging in the 1841 census with the Kay family and Rosina was also there, her occupation was Pedlar. Is it a situation whereby "birds of a feather flock together and that was their thing in common.......... living on their wits conning people with their stories that might have not been quite true. Good little snippet. Thank you


Popsit
 

rupert

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#43
Not sure what to make of this.
National archives uk

Prisoner name: BarnetByrnes (or BarnetBurns).
Prisoner occupation: Hawker and pedlar.
Court and date of trial: Bristol Quarter Sessions [Gloucestershire] October 1823.
Crime: Obtaining money under false pretences.
Initial sentence: Six months imprisonment and fine £10.
Annotated (Outcome): To be recommended in July.
Petitioner(s): The convict.
Grounds for clemency (Petition Details): Dependent family; cannot raise the money for fine.

13 October 1823 - Bristol Mercury - Bristol, England
BRISTOL MICHAELMAS SESSIONS:- The following prisoners take their trial
at our Sessions, which commence this day:-
Bernard Burns, 27, for obtaining moneys under false pretences.


other variants spotted are Barnes, Barnett, Barnard


Rupert
 

horse

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#44
Thanks, Rupert...

Checked the index under Bernard and he is there, the image clearly says Bernard... It is very faint and there is some writing above his name [even fainter], but it may be in regard to the chap above. This is a partial copy for ID purposes..
 

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popsit

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#45
13 October 1823 - Bristol Mercury - Bristol, England
BRISTOL MICHAELMAS SESSIONS:- The following prisoners take their trial
at our Sessions, which commence this day:-
Bernard Burns, 27, for obtaining moneys under false pretences.


other variants spotted are Barnes, Barnett, Barnard


Rupert
this man was born in 1796, so I am picking he isn't mine as mine was born 1805

Popsit
 

gibbo

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#46
this man was born in 1796, so I am picking he isn't mine as mine was born 1805

Popsit
I wouldnt dismiss him totally just yet, perhaps put him on to one side for a bit. The thing with that era is that its not uncommon for age to be out and names spelt differently. Actually it still happens in the media today :2fun::2fun:
 

Ellie7

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#47
I am still not convinced he was the George Burns 1805 .Have you his marriage to Rosina ,and what does that say? Can't trust the French marriage record as he lied about his name, so what else did he lie about on that record.I think there is the name Barnet in the Family. I came across your 2009 search on another site, we are all going round in circles. Same records appearing ,but not nearer to who he was.

Ellie
 

Ellie7

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#48
Sussex Advertiser 14 November 1836
Copied from the London papers
Concerning trying to trick the Paris Academy
The Journal General de France reported a trick played my a sailor ,named Barnet Burns, who belongs to a WHALE SHIP at Havie. Deceived M Geoffroy St.Hilaire, who introduced him as King of Zealand.
Was outed when a Mr Payne addressed Burns in English ,and Burns answered him.The King hurried out of the Academy, with the members in high dungeon that a trick should have been attempted on them.


Edit-Just a thought, Hull was a whaling ship port around that time, leads me to the 1841 Census .

Edit-Rosina started of playing the Musical Glasses (nicer for ladies that the bottles LOL)so 1841 Census ? then becomes a Professor of Music ?

Ellie
 
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Ellie7

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#49
1830— T H E N EW Z E AL AN DE R s. (T he Library of Entertain ing Know
ledge .) Lon don : C. Kn igh t. I l lustrated by a map and 46
engravin gs. 12mo, 424 pp.
[This volume , which is said to have been written in part by Lord
Brougham, contains a careful an well -written narrative , compiled
from all available sources up to the date of publication. Most of the
original portion is composed of the story of John Rutherford, an
English sailor, who fell into the hands of the Poverty Bay natives
with eleven of his comrades, March 6th , 18 16. Eventually Ruther
ford was th only one of the party left alive , and he lived with the
Maoris , adopting their habits and mode of life , for ten years, all but
two months. He was made a chief, and even underwent the process
of tattooing , not only on his face , but on his body as well . He was
rescued by an American trading brig , commanded by Captain Jack
son , who took him to Otaheite , where he entered the service of the
British Consul and married a native woman . He reached England
in the Blanche frigate, in 1827, after an absence of21 years. He was
then in his 32nd year.]
1831—T H E H I sT O R Y or MAR I Tm

https://www.forgottenbooks.com/en/books/ContributionsTowardsaBibliographyofNewZealand_10687664

Ellie
 

Ladybird1300

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#50
I am still not convinced he was the George Burns 1805 .Have you his marriage to Rosina ,and what does that say? Can't trust the French marriage record as he lied about his name, so what else did he lie about on that record.I think there is the name Barnet in the Family. I came across your 2009 search on another site, we are all going round in circles. Same records appearing ,but not nearer to who he was.

Ellie
This is the marriage, he is calling himself Barnet Burns:

Name: Barnet Burns
Spouse: Bridget Cain
Record Type: Banns
Event Date: 1 Jun 1835
Parish: Christ Church
Borough: City of London

The original is on Ancestry, but haven't found the one for Rosina

Amanda
 

gibbo

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#51
1830— T H E N EW Z E AL AN DE R s. (T he Library of Entertain ing Know
ledge .) Lon don : C. Kn igh t. I l lustrated by a map and 46
engravin gs. 12mo, 424 pp.
[This volume , which is said to have been written in part by Lord
Brougham, contains a careful an well -written narrative , compiled
from all available sources up to the date of publication. Most of the
original portion is composed of the story of John Rutherford, an
English sailor, who fell into the hands of the Poverty Bay natives
with eleven of his comrades, March 6th , 18 16. Eventually Ruther
ford was th only one of the party left alive , and he lived with the
Maoris , adopting their habits and mode of life , for ten years, all but
two months. He was made a chief, and even underwent the process
of tattooing , not only on his face , but on his body as well . He was
rescued by an American trading brig , commanded by Captain Jack
son , who took him to Otaheite , where he entered the service of the
British Consul and married a native woman . He reached England
in the Blanche frigate, in 1827, after an absence of21 years. He was
then in his 32nd year.]
1831—T H E H I sT O R Y or MAR I Tm

https://www.forgottenbooks.com/en/books/ContributionsTowardsaBibliographyofNewZealand_10687664

Ellie
John Rutherford and Barnet Burn's stories are so similar. Makes me wonder if they infact made the decision to have the tattoos for the purpose of trying to make money when returning to the UK. Both say they were held captive, both married the Chief's daughters, both say they were made a Chief etc etc.

https://books.google.com.au/books?i...&q=John Rutherford, an English sailor&f=false
 

horse

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#52
Yeah, there are a number of press reports around 1836 and at later dates not necessarily impacting on the facts that are being sought. Popsit has already suggested some of the actions of Barnet and Rosina are mischievous..

New info is always being found and put online, certainly well worth raising so-called brick walls from time-to-time.. Done it myself on a few occasions..

Geoff
 

Ladybird1300

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#54
I have been reading the accounts of the trips of John Rutherford and Barnet Burns. The interesting fact is, John Rutherford arrived back in England in 1828 no one knows what happened to him after 1830 he vanishes.
Barnet Burns account says he leaves England in 1827 for Rio then on to Australia and New Zealand.
We know that Barnet Burns was illiterate I wonder if he knew the exact year he left England??
Is it possible that John and Barnet are one and the same person :confused:

An excerpt from John Rutherford's account:

In a short time he was taken on board the Agnes, commanded by Captain Coffin, who made for New Zealand where, endeavouring to put into the Bay of Islands, he was blown off course and made anchorage, on 6 March 1816, at a bay called by Rutherford “Takomardu”. This was probably Poverty Bay, but may have been situated in the Bay of Islands or at Kennedys Bay. The crew, with the exception of 12 men, were killed and the ship burnt. All those remaining were killed and eaten, except Rutherford, who was taken inland by the chief “Aimy”. Rutherford was tattooed on the face, participated in tribal activities, and, later, was made a chief. He was then obliged to marry into the tribe and chose Aimy's two daughters, Hau and Peka, as his wives. Rutherford journeyed to the west coast of the North Island and Cook Strait, and was probably at the battle Ika-a-rangi-nui of February 1825 at which Hongi was a prominent figure. Rutherford was rescued on 9 January 1826 by Captain Jackson in an American brig, and eventually arrived in England in 1828 after visits to Hawaii, Australia, and Rio de Janiero.

I am unable to paste and ecerpt from the Barnet Burns story but this is the link if anyone is interested:

file:///C:/Users/Owner/OneDrive/Documents/A%20Brief%20Narrative%20of%20the%20Remarkable%20History%20of%20Barnet%20Burns,%20and%20English%20...%20-%20Google%20Books.htm

As already been noted their stories are very similar, to the fact they were both at Poverty Bay when these incidents occurred. The Barnet Burns version has been embelished making it a far longer story.


Amanda
 

gibbo

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#55
For interest..

The Leicester Chronicle: or, Commercial and Agricultural Advertiser (Leicester, England), Saturday, May 17, 1828
 
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gibbo

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#56
Another article on John, not so sure now if he and Barnet are the same person.
Rather a large article so i just put the informative bits on here. Such as a mention of a mother in law. According to the article there were 4 other men spared and tattooed.

The Manchester Mercury; and Tuesday's General Advertiser (Manchester, England), Tuesday, July 29, 1828
 
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Ladybird1300

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#57
I just read that article on FMP, so you don't think he changed his name because of his indiscretion do you??


Amanda
 

popsit

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#60
I've lost track of where we are up to :eek:

Do you need anything more popsit?
" Do I need anything more" you ask......AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This man BURNS!!! is mine, however I have not come across anyone in all my years of researching that has lied as much as he has. Today I am feeling slightly gutted but will recover lol. Horse, to you, the marriage cert. you sent I have transcribed as much as I can as the writing is atrocious. First he says he is Charles Barnet Burns, his name was never Charles, I cant quite make out where he says he was born. The worst bit is his mothers nee name before marriage which he says was Commons, not so, it was Stewart for definite. There is a good write up on Wikipedia, if you just put in Barnet Burns and read from the beginning, much of it is true. It does say he married Rosina Crowther but people on this forum have searched for a marriage to no avail. He would have been still married to the French lady anyway.

I am going to put all his lies behind me as I know the date he was born and his parents so will carry on from his parents back. I would like once more to thank you all for all the help you have given me so now we can put him to bed, however lol I will be back as his grandfather is proving a bit of a problem.

Popsit/NZ
 

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