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James & Ellen HAMILTON

Hi Elwyn,

I have a copy of Margaret's marriage, see below.

====
James - said to be a farmer at Ballykine and to have died in 1866.

James HAMILTON Magheradrool of Ballykine; auction of his farm 30 May 1796 - his father ??

Civil Death Record
Name: James Hamilton Date of Death: 16-Oct-1869
Age: 96 Parish / District: Downpatrick
Address: Moybrick County: Co. Down
Status: Denomination: Civil Record
Occupation: FARMER ***: Male
Graveyard Informant
Graveyard: Relationship:
Parish: Name:
County: Address:
Notes:


Ellen Newell - said to have died 1868 aged 98 but nothing that fits found so far.

=====
Children

James b. ? - said to be a farmer at Ballykine, Ballynahinch

-----
Ellen b. ?

??
Name: Ellen Hamilton Date of Death: 14-Dec-1872
Age: 70 Parish / District: Banbridge
Address: Drumaghadone County: Co. Down
Status: Denomination: Civil Record
Occupation: WINDER ***: Female
Graveyard Informant
Graveyard: Relationship:
Parish: Name:
County: Address:
Notes:

-----
Samuel b. ?

??
Samuel HAMILTON Magheradrool son of James Hamilton ; aged 27 married Mary Lightbody 21 Mar 1851

-----
William b. 1823 - 1827

R.I.C. Service No 7533
Joined 9 Dec 1846 - Age 21 - 5' 11 1/2" - Co Down - P[resbyterian] - Rev J Shaw, Clerk - Farmer

Reg No. 56 - 2 Sep 1858
Scots Church - Presbyterian - Cobh
William: Age 31 - Policeman - Leemount, Cork - Father: James - Farmer
Anne: Age 27 - Granabraher, Cork - Father: John - Victualler
by Licence by me William Magill ?
In the Presence of us: John M'Cluskey, William Mellefont

Reg No. 164 - 6 Nov 1895
Place of death: St Joseph's Terrace, Cork - Widower - age 72 - Police Pensioner
Cause of death: Cardiac ? ? Congestion 10 days Certified
Informant: Ellen Hamilton - Daughter - Present at death - St Joseph's Terrace, Cork

-----
Margaret b. abt 1831.

Miss Margaret HAMILTON Magheradrool daughter of James Hamilton aged 20 married John McCoubrie 21 Jan 1853.

Church Marriage Record
Date of Marriage: 21-Jan-1853
Parish / District: Magheradrool County: Co. Down
Husband Wife
Name: John McCoubrie Margaret Hamilton
Address: Ballymacarn Ballymacarn
Denomination:
Occupation: FARMER
Age:
Status:
Husband's Father Wife's Father
Name: John McCoubrie James Hamilton
Address:
Denomination:
Occupation: FARMER FARMER
Husband's Mother Wife's Mother
Name:
Address:
Denomination:
Occupation:
Witness 1 Witness 2
Name: (Illegible) Stuart Mary (Illegible)
Notes:
Church: 1st Ballynahinch Presbyterian
Minister/Priest: SHAW JOHN.


Age in shipping record points to 1831.

Death 11639/1886 McCOUBRIE Margaret 54 HAMILTON James - Ellen NEWELL d. Ballarat East, Victoria.

-----
John b. 1 Jan 1836

Service Number: 18210
Name: HAMILTON, John
Age when joining: 18 years
Height: 5 feet 7 ¾ inches
Native County: Down
Religion: Pres.
Recommended by: S.I. Stafford
Trade or Calling: Labourer
Date of Appointment: 14 April 1854
Discharge: Resigned
Discharge Date: 31 August 1858
Remarks: "To emigrate to Australia"

SCHEDULE C
1862 Marriages solemnized in the District of Ballaarat
No. 361 Ballaarat 7th July 1862 - Reg# 2966
John Hamilton Bachelor Nil - Co Down Ireland - Mounted Police Constable 26 - Creswick Creswick - James Hamilton Farmer - Eleanor Newell

Death 7694/1922 HAMILTON John 86 - James - Ellen UNK d. Ballarat, Victoria.


Does not add up. Date of birth for John is from his police record in Victoria. Mother Ellen said to have died in 1868 aged 98.

Three or four children born 1823 - 1836 so ages at death or year of death for James sen & Ellen Newell on the tree passed down must be wrong.

Next I'll go through the Griffiths and tithe record information.

Dave
 
Dave,

There’s a lot of James Hamiltons in Co Down, and sorting them out is challenging.

You say that your James Hamilton was a farmer from Ballykine. Ballykine is in Lisburn civil registration district. Moybrick is some miles to the east and in Downpatrick registration area. I suspect the 1869 death you have found there may be an unconnected family.

Looking at the civil registration records, I see a James Hamilton death registered in Lisburn on 18.6.1866 aged 74. You might want to check it out. 1866 deaths aren’t free on irishgenealogy yet so you’ll need to pay GRONI to see it. I don’t see an Ellen death though c 1868 that fits with your information about her age. However I would say her age must be suspect. If she was born in 1770, she’d hardly have been the mother of Margaret born c 1833, when she’d have been 63. Most women stopped having children in their mid 40s at that time. So her age might be out by 20 years (or more). There’s an Ellen regd Downpatrick in 1866 age 74. Again you’ll need to pay GRONI to see that.

I don’t see any Hamilton farms in Ballykine Lower or Upper in Griffiths for 1863, so that is odd. It obviously suggests that James had left that townland by that year. There was no Hamilton farm in Ballykine in the tithes in 1834 either, so if that’s where James senior did farm, he doesn’t appear to have been a long term resident there.

http://www.irishgenealogyhub.com/down/tithe-applotment-books/magheradrool-parish.php#.W_Vd2BR2ug0

You have Samuel Hamilton marrying Mary Lightbody on 21.3.1851. (I think the correct date was actually 20th March). His marriage shows him to have been living in Ballymacarn, and that his father James was a “small farmer” there. It’s in the Downpatrick registration area. There is a James Hamilton in Griffiths in 1863 farming plot 39, 15 acres. (A small farm). That ties in with Margaret Hamilton’s marriage in 1853 which also gives Ballymacarn as her address. That James Hamilton died 2.7.1867 aged 69, at Ballymacarn. He was a widower, so if it’s the right family Ellen died before 1867. I don’t see a death that fits 1864 to 1867 so the inference is she died pre 1864, though obviously that doesn’t fit with your information, but clearly it can’t be 100% right given Ellen’s improbable age (to reportedly be a mother in the 1830s).

1 Hamilton farm in Ballymacarn in 1901:

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Ballynahinch/Ballymacarn_North/1224499/

That couple were James Hamilton married to Sarah Ann Graham on 1.12.1854 at Ballynahinch 1st Presbyterian. Both came from Ballycarn. James’ father was also James. So that fits with the family tree. So far I am leaning towards your family living in Ballymacarn. That’s in the Downpatrick registration district.

Probate abstract: Probate of the Will of James Hamilton late of Ballymacarn County Down Farmer who died 22 December 1907 granted at Belfast to John Hamilton and William Armstrong Farmers.

I also noted this probate abstract:

Hamilton John of Ballymacarn North Ballynahinch county Down and of 15 Bogtown Castlerock county Londonderry farmer died 27 November 1949 at latter place Probate Belfast 3 March to Nathaniel Whiteford retired police constable and William Hutchinson farmer. Effects £416 15s.

Margaret’s marriage to James McCoubrie was in Ballynahinch 1st. Tradition being to marry in the bride’s church, I’d say that’s likely the family church, if you are looking for baptism records or gravestones. However their baptism records don’t start till 1841, and they have no marriages earlier than 1845, so if I am correct that this is the family church, you won’t find any baptisms for James Hamilton senior’s children in the 1820s and 1830s.

Re John Hamilton b 1.1.1836. From 1844 onwards new recruits to the RIC were supposed to be 19 or over, unless their father had been a serving member of the force, in which case it was 18. Your John was only 18, and as far we know his father wasn’t ever a police officer. Perhaps they just bent the rules.

I suppose what this all boils down to is that if you are convinced the family came from Ballykine, then there’s no record of them there when there should be, ie in the mid 1800s. However if you are happy that Samuel & Margaret are children of the James Hamilton you are researching, then the evidence points to them living in Ballymacarn. And they aren’t too difficult to follow.


Elwyn
 
Thanks very much Elwyn.

From the earlier posts:

Tithe applotmant records: 2 households in Ballykine 1826 No. 9 Thomas and No. 10 David.

I have no information on the old family tree re those two.

Griffiths 1863 Ballykine

Plots 15 & 16 James
Plot 16b John senior - sublet from James
Plot 18 John junior

I can't see how they fit in my family.

Seems the tree handed down to me is not correct re a few details. Ellen can't have died 1868 aged 98.

Re son James the tree has born 1791 and "Succeeded to farm at Ballykene, Ballinahinch."

Re daughter Ellen - nothing

Re son Samuel, just this "Went back to Scotland. Descendants said to be still there."

Don't know if this fits or not:

James HAMILTON Magheradrool of Ballykine; auction of his farm 30 May 1796 NS

Dave
 
I'm wondering if the tree is one generation out.

If James (married to Ellen) died 1867 aged 69, then three eldest children James, Ellen and Samuel were born before 1823.

If the tree was one generation out it still does not fit with James senior born 1791 unless age at death in 1867 is out.

Then there is the 1866 death of a James aged 74.

I've seen the date for Samuel's marriage as 21 and 27 as if one figure was hard to read so should be 20 then.

It seems Samuel's older brother James married in 1854 and that he died in 1907.

Perhaps the father of James (married to Ellen) was also James who was at one time at Ballykine and that the family ended up at Ballymacarn.

This looks to be an alternative transcription of Margaret's marriage - witness a Mary Newell.

Lots of deaths in Downpatrick for a Mary Newell, some with middle names.

Church Marriage Record
Date of Marriage: 21-Jan-1853
Parish / District: DOWN County: Co. Down
Husband Wife
Name: John McCarlin Margaret Hamilton
Address: Ballymacarn Ballymacarn
Denomination: Presbyterian Presbyterian
Occupation: FARMER
Age: Full Age (Over 21) Full Age (Over 21)
Status: Bachelor (Previously unmarried) Spinster (Previously unmarried)
Husband's Father Wife's Father
Name: John McCarlin James Hamilton
Address:
Denomination:
Occupation: FARMER FARMER
Husband's Mother Wife's Mother
Name:
Address:
Denomination:
Occupation:
Witness 1 Witness 2
Name: George Stuart Mary Newell
Notes:
Church: BALLYNAHINCH 1ST Presbyterian
BY LICENCE REV J SHAW.


??
James Hamilton
Birth Date 1834
Age 20
Spouse's Name Sarah Ann Graham
Spouse's Birth Date 1836
Spouse's Age 18
Event Date 01 Dec 1854
Event Place Magheradroll, Down, Ire
Father's Name James Hamilton
Spouse's Father's Name John Graham
Batch: M702104
GS Film number 101355

Also age in 1901 census is 67 and that places James between Margaret and John, so not the eldest ??

??
James Hamilton
Event Type Death
Event Date Oct - Dec 1907
Event Place Downpatrick, Ireland
Registration Quarter and Year Oct - Dec 1907
Registration District Downpatrick
Age 63
Birth Year (Estimated) 1844
Volume Number 1
Page Number 413
GS Film number 0101603

Don't know how that one fits although " late of Ballymacarn ... "

??
Samuel Hamilton
Event Type Death
Event Date Jul - Sep 1884
Event Place Downpatrick, Ireland
Registration Quarter and Year Jul - Sep 1884
Registration District Downpatrick
Age 70
Birth Year (Estimated) 1814
Volume Number 1
Page Number 319
GS Film number 101592

If James senior died 1867 aged 69 then that's not a good fit. Age at death out for Samuel and or James senior. ??

With the details on Margaret's marriage and death certificate it looks like Ballymacarn is the right place for the family but lots of details still not falling into place.

Dave
 
Hi Elwyn,

I have three deaths now from GRONI.

The 1866 death for a James does not seem to fit - married - Edentrillick, Dromore, Hillsborough, Lisburn.

410 - TwentyThird July 1866 Ballymacarn - Ellen Hamilton - female - Married - 74 years - Farmer's wife - Old Age & Debility 3 months uncertified no medical attendant - William Hamilton Waterford crossed out and replaced by Sarah Hamilton Present at death Ballymacarn - Twentysixth July 1866 - I Dickson Registrar

Son William was in Waterford in 1866.

Birth Certificate: Reg #171
Waterford District, Union of Waterford, Co Waterford
Second January 1866
Place of Birth: Police Barracks, Lady Lane, Waterford
Ellen - female
William Hamilton - Police Barracks, Lady Lane, Waterford
Anne Hamilton formerly Melefont
Police Constable
William Hamilton Father Police Barracks Lady Lane, Waterford
Registered: January 18th 1866 James J Ryan ? Registrar

Sarah could be wife of James junior.

62 - Second July 1867 Ballymacarn - James Hamilton - male - Widower - 69 years - Farmer - Old Age & Debility 1 month ailing uncertified no medical attendant - James Hamilton Present at death Ballymacarn - Ninth July 1867 - I Dickson Registrar

Perhaps the age at death is out.

James junior, 20 in 1854 and 67 in 1901. But fits being roughly same age as Sarah Ann.

Sarah Ann Hamilton
Event Type Death
Event Date Oct - Dec 1909
Event Place Downpatrick, Ireland
Registration Quarter and Year Oct - Dec 1909
Registration District Downpatrick
Age 74
Birth Year (Estimated) 1835
Volume Number 1
Page Number 395
GS Film number 0101604

Dave
 
Dave,

Re Griffiths, the Ballykine information you have given from it (plots 15 to 18 etc) is a different Ballykine. It’s in the parish of Magherahamlet, not Magheradrool. You say your family came from Magheradrool (where there’s a Ballykine Upper & Lower). So the Magherahamlet Hamiltons appear to be another probably unconnected family, in a different parish. That’s probably why you can’t connect them to your family.

The 1796 sale (which appears to relate to the correct Ballykine) may have been following James’ death. I see that PRONI appears to have some notes relating to his will. T702/1/20, dated 1796, is a document entitled:

“William Hamilton, Ballykine. Notes of Dromore Will.”

Probably worth looking at. (I can look it up next time I am in PRONI, if you want).

Re the Samuel Hamilton who is said to have gone back to Scotland, I spotted his wife’s death in Scotland. She died 31.3.1858 in Auchinleck, Ayrshire, aged 28 (and she is buried in Auchinleck churchyard). Samuel was the informant, then residing in Main St, Auchinleck.

Samuel evidently didn’t grieve too long because on 8.2.1859 he remarried in Auchinleck, to Sarah Peden, a widow. Now the useful thing about that marriage cert is that it confirms Samuel’s parents as James Hamilton, farmer and Ellen Hamilton mn Newell. Both were still alive at that date. (Scottish birth, death & marriage certificates are pretty meticulous about recording whether parents are alive or not. In contrast to Irish certificates where they rarely bothered). So that all fits correctly with the Ballymacarn family where we now know James died in 1867 and Ellen in 1866. (I agree the informant Sarah in 1866 is likely Sarah Ann Graham).

I think I can see Samuel Hamilton & Sarah Peden in the 1861 census for Auchinleck, and no doubt you can pursue them onwards if you are interested via the Scottish censuses. I think Samuel died in Auchinleck 1902 aged 74 and Sarah there in 1904. Samuel’s age in 1861 was 31, so born c 1830. Doesn't quite fit with other earlier information but it may not be all that accurate.

I think the Ballymacarn family are the right ones. The ages are often out on those certificates, so the older the person is/was the more leeway is required.


Elwyn
 
Last edited:
Thanks very much Elwyn.

I have a copy now of the 1859 marriage - a bit harder to read than the usual so I may ask SP if a better copy can be produced.

I have not gone as far as getting copies of these yet.

Death 1902 HAMILTON SAMUEL 74 Auchinleck 577/1 20

Death 1904 HAMILTON SARAH [DUNKELD] 76 Auchinleck 577/1 20

Death 1858 HAMILTON MARY [LIGHTBODY] 28 THOMSON 577/ 14 Auchinleck

I've started a topic on census board for Samuel & Sarah in census.

Yes, next time or whenever you are in PRONI please get a copy of document entitled “William Hamilton, Ballykine. Notes of Dromore Will.”

The parishes and the 3x Ballykine had me confused. I'm ok now. :) Margaret's marriage has Parish / District: Magheradrool

The tree I inherited was really wrong with the details of the first two generations. Samuel is now younger than William.

I'm having real problems with James junior. If he is the eldest then he was born before William and before 1823 ??

James Hamilton
Event Type Death
Event Date Oct - Dec 1907
Event Place Downpatrick, Ireland
Registration Quarter and Year Oct - Dec 1907
Registration District Downpatrick
Age 63
Birth Year (Estimated) 1844
Volume Number 1


Dave
 
Last edited:
??
Civil Death Record
Name: Ellen Hamilton Date of Death: 02-Oct-1864
Age: 31 Parish / District: Downpatrick
Address: Gransha County: Co. Down
Status: Denomination: Civil Record
Occupation: EMBROIDERER ***: Female
Graveyard Informant
Graveyard: Relationship:
Parish: Name:
County: Address:
Notes:

The tree has nothing on Ellen so I have no clues from that.

Dave
 
Dave,

Regarding Ellen, do you know that she lived to be an adult? She might have died young. If she was unmarried, and her parents were farmers, I would have expected her to stay at home. For a farmer’s daughter who was single, I’d be looking for a death in Ballymacarn, not Gransha . But obviously if she died pre 1864, there may be no record. Presbyterians in Ireland didn’t generally keep any burial records. (They often did in Scotland).

Re the 1859 marriage, it reads to me: On the eighth day of February 1859 at Beechwood Square, Auchinleck. Marriage after banns now solemnized between according to the forms of the United Original Secession church.

Samuel Hamilton 29, widower, Auchinleck, Pit Head Man, James Hamilton, farmer, Ellen Hamilton maiden name Newell; Sarah Peden, 31, Auchinleck, widow, John Dunkeld farmer (dcd) Barbara McCure (or maybe McCane), farm servant. Witnesses Hugh Brown & John Peden.

Note: The couple weren’t married in church. The Minister married them in a house, probably either his Manse or the bride’s family home. (For Presbyterians in Scotland that was very common. Church marriages only became the norm towards the end of the 1800s).

Regarding James Hamilton’s age, his marriage certificate in 1854 gives his age as 20 (so born c 1833). So his death certificate, which gives his age as 63 (born c 1844) must be out by at least 10 years. Not unusual for the time. The informant was his wife, so obviously she didn’t know his age, or had forgotten.

I have a letter I found in PRONI from someone in Pettigoe, Co. Donegal in 1908 writing to his Minister, asking for proof of age (ie a baptismal certificate). All he knew was that he was between “70 and 78 years of age.” He clearly had only the vaguest idea of his age and couldn’t narrow it down to within 9 years. (The reason for the letter was that the old age pension was being introduced in 1909 for people aged 70 and over. Documentary proof of age was required. Thus, probably for the first time in his life, establishing his age accurately became relevant to him). Many ages are way out in the censuses and death certificates.

I’d say that the age 20 in December 1854 is probably as close as you’ll get to establishing when James was born. Clearly he wasn’t the eldest son, and the farm usually went to the eldest son, but I can only guess that his other 2 apparently elder brothers declined to take it over and so it went to him.

Couple of deaths to add to your tree for Samuel:

Charlotte Hamilton died Auchinleck 1865 aged 11. Mother’s maiden name Lightbody.

Janet Hamilton died 1869 Auchinleck, aged 0, mothers mn Dunkeld.

I’ll get that will information next time I am in PRONI.
 
Last edited:
Thank you very much Elwyn.

I will probably never find out who the author of the tree I inherited was, but quite curious how it was right about Samuel going to Scotland, but way out re ages at death for James and Ellen and out in the order of their children's births. The tree has nothing at all for Ellen expect place her as second born after James. Could have died young then.

Dave
 
Thanks Elywn.

Re the 1859 marriage I think Barbara McCure. The 'r' is very clear.

I went though it and missed 'Square' and 'Pit' but can see them now.

I can't work out the name of the Minister - George K... ?

Dave
 
Thanks Elwyn.

I was not sure about the first letter but if 'R' then I agree it looks like Roger.

Dave
 
Dave,

I have attached T702/1/20 from PRONI. It’s fragments of a Hamilton will. The exact source isn’t clear but it may be a transcript of what remained of a will rescued from the 1922 fire. (The rest of the documents in the T702/1 series are similar). I have seen some with burn marks in PRONI that evidently only got half burned. This looks to be a partial survivor that someone has later typed up. It’s undated and just described as “Hamilton, Ford & Mathews legal documents.”

Hope it is of some assistance anyway.


Elwyn
 

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Many thanks Elwyn for taking the time to get that for me. Anything that can shed some light on my early Hamiltons is welcome.

Dave
 
On your question about whether you can rely on the marriage cert not saying James is deceased, the answer is no. Sometimes it will say deceased and often it won’t. And it will give the father’s occupation regardless of whether he is alive or dead. It was very much up to the Minister’s whim whether (dcd) was added or not. Draw no conclusions from the absence of dcd.
 
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