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Obit for Margaret's father .. still checking it out.
etc etc
He married Miss Margaret Jacobs,
daughter of the late Mr. Wm. Jacobs,
who survives him. He leaves the fol-
lowing family: Messrs Charles Rob-
ert, Arthur P. Albert H., Mesdames
James Butler (Sydney), W. Thomp-
son (Parkes), J. Davidson (America),
and W. Grey (Cowra). Three sons
predeceased him. There are also 11
grandchildren.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/113491439?
220/1933 BUTLER MARGARET CHARLES MARGARET SYDNEY
Buried in the Cowra cemetery
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/16967237?
etc etc
He married Miss Margaret Jacobs,
daughter of the late Mr. Wm. Jacobs,
who survives him. He leaves the fol-
lowing family: Messrs Charles Rob-
ert, Arthur P. Albert H., Mesdames
James Butler (Sydney), W. Thomp-
son (Parkes), J. Davidson (America),
and W. Grey (Cowra). Three sons
predeceased him. There are also 11
grandchildren.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/113491439?
220/1933 BUTLER MARGARET CHARLES MARGARET SYDNEY
Buried in the Cowra cemetery
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/16967237?
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Charles Whittaker and Margaret Jacob had eleven children:
Charles b. 10 September 1871 Back Creek, Cowra, d. 4 March 1934 Cowra
William Henry, b.1893 Back Creek, Cowra, d. 14 February 1901 Back Creek, Cowra
Robert John b. 1876, d. 23 May 1930 Back Creek, Cowra
Margaret b. 1879 d. 8 March 1933 Paddington, Sydney; m. James Henry Butler, b. c. 1866, m. 13 June 1900 Back Creek, Cowra, father Dennis Butler.
...
https://whatthebutlerdid.wordpress.com/2015/06/25/jjwhittaker-no-photos/
The 'Dennis' but does not help with NSW BMD.
Looks like James Henry was not born in NSW.
Damn NSW BMD. The marriage search was returning zero results for 15 minutes.
Charles b. 10 September 1871 Back Creek, Cowra, d. 4 March 1934 Cowra
William Henry, b.1893 Back Creek, Cowra, d. 14 February 1901 Back Creek, Cowra
Robert John b. 1876, d. 23 May 1930 Back Creek, Cowra
Margaret b. 1879 d. 8 March 1933 Paddington, Sydney; m. James Henry Butler, b. c. 1866, m. 13 June 1900 Back Creek, Cowra, father Dennis Butler.
...
https://whatthebutlerdid.wordpress.com/2015/06/25/jjwhittaker-no-photos/
The 'Dennis' but does not help with NSW BMD.
Looks like James Henry was not born in NSW.
Damn NSW BMD. The marriage search was returning zero results for 15 minutes.
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Oh!
Michael James Butler
Father: Denis Butler
Mother: Mary Jane Brett
Birth Place: Ashbourne, Victoria
Registration Year: 1864
Registration Place: Victoria
Registration Number: 2472
Catherine A Butler
Birth Date: 1872
Father: Dennis Butler
Mother: Mary J
Registration Year: 1872
Registration Place: Bathurst, New South Wales
Registration Number: 6771
Still no sign of James Henry..
Geoff
Michael James Butler
Father: Denis Butler
Mother: Mary Jane Brett
Birth Place: Ashbourne, Victoria
Registration Year: 1864
Registration Place: Victoria
Registration Number: 2472
Catherine A Butler
Birth Date: 1872
Father: Dennis Butler
Mother: Mary J
Registration Year: 1872
Registration Place: Bathurst, New South Wales
Registration Number: 6771
Still no sign of James Henry..
Geoff
Hi Dave,
more confusion..
further to Geoff's post on birth for 2 children of Denis & Mary Jane,
James Henry is supposed to be born 1866 Vic according to Trees, and his Mum Mary Jane dies 1875 Bathurst,
a Denis Butler is in trouble with the law (Police Gazettes 28 May 1884)- if it is him.. and his death in 1915 Bathurst.
On Trove National Advocate Bathurst Mon 9 Aug 1915 for Denis Butler has:
The death is announced of Mr Denis Butler, a very old and highly respected resident of the Bathurst district, at the age of 82 years. He was a native of King's County, Ireland, and came to this country about 60 years ago. At one time he had the farm at the Round House, where his draught horses were much sought after. For a time he resided at Gowan. The family left arefour sons, James, John, Denis and Bernard. another paper has chief mourners as Messrs John, Denis and Bernard Butler
children births found:
Michael James b 1864 Vic - died?
John Thomas Butler b 1867 Bathurst - died 1942 Forbes
Denis Butler b 1869 Bathurst - died ?
Bernard Butler b 1871 Bathurst - died?
Catherine A b 1872 - died 1890 Bathurst
William Butler b 1875 Bathurst - died 1875 Bathurst
a John J Butler died 1935 Canterbury - parents Denis & Mary
regards
Val
more confusion..
further to Geoff's post on birth for 2 children of Denis & Mary Jane,
James Henry is supposed to be born 1866 Vic according to Trees, and his Mum Mary Jane dies 1875 Bathurst,
a Denis Butler is in trouble with the law (Police Gazettes 28 May 1884)- if it is him.. and his death in 1915 Bathurst.
On Trove National Advocate Bathurst Mon 9 Aug 1915 for Denis Butler has:
The death is announced of Mr Denis Butler, a very old and highly respected resident of the Bathurst district, at the age of 82 years. He was a native of King's County, Ireland, and came to this country about 60 years ago. At one time he had the farm at the Round House, where his draught horses were much sought after. For a time he resided at Gowan. The family left arefour sons, James, John, Denis and Bernard. another paper has chief mourners as Messrs John, Denis and Bernard Butler
children births found:
Michael James b 1864 Vic - died?
John Thomas Butler b 1867 Bathurst - died 1942 Forbes
Denis Butler b 1869 Bathurst - died ?
Bernard Butler b 1871 Bathurst - died?
Catherine A b 1872 - died 1890 Bathurst
William Butler b 1875 Bathurst - died 1875 Bathurst
a John J Butler died 1935 Canterbury - parents Denis & Mary
regards
Val
These records on FS are incorrect:
The date is the date of death not the date of burial which was one day later:
Name Charles Butler
Event Type Burial
Event Date 04 Nov 1914
Event Place Sydney, NSW
Burial Place Camden
Age 60
Name Lucy Butler
Event Type Burial
Event Date 05 May 1937
Event Place Sydney, NSW
Burial Place Camden
Age 78
They both died in Camden not in Sydney.
They also don't state it's CofE St John's Cemetery.
The date is the date of death not the date of burial which was one day later:
Name Charles Butler
Event Type Burial
Event Date 04 Nov 1914
Event Place Sydney, NSW
Burial Place Camden
Age 60
Name Lucy Butler
Event Type Burial
Event Date 05 May 1937
Event Place Sydney, NSW
Burial Place Camden
Age 78
They both died in Camden not in Sydney.
They also don't state it's CofE St John's Cemetery.
Hi all,
First time poster here. Great to see you all looking into my great grandparents, as I am also hitting a road block with them. Are you working from their descendants as I am, or their ancestors? I'm happy to tell you what I know and what I have concluded.
My grandfather was James William Butler. He was born in Cowra on 19 July 1901. His birth certificate records his father as James Henry Butler, 35yo, born in Ballarat, Victoria, and his mother as Margaret Whittaker, 23yo, born in Cowra, NSW.
James Henry Butler and Margaret Whittaker were married on 13 June 1900. Their marriage certificate lists the parents of James Henry Butler as being Denis Butler and unknown wife (deceased).
There is no record of a James Henry Butler born to a Denis Butler in the period 1860 – 1870 in either NSW or Victoria.
There is a Denis Butler (22yo) who married a Mary Jane Brett (18yo) on 18 November 1862, in Bathurst. Denis Butler and Mary Jane Brett had six children :
The births of all the children, except for Michael James, are recorded on the NSW Births, Deaths and Marriages. However, there is no record of a James Henry Butler being born to Denis Butler or Mary Jane Brett.
On Mary Jane’s death certificate, her first born son is recorded as Michael James, 10yo, in January 1875.
On Denis’ death certificate, his first born son is recorded as James M., 50yo, in August 1915.
My great grandfather, James Henry Butler, gives his age at the time of his marriage as 34, lists his father’s name as Denis, and his place of birth as Ballarat, on his marriage certificate. This would suggest that he was born around 1866.
Expanding the search to include Victoria (where James Henry Butler claims he was born), we find a record for a Michael James Butler, born to Denis Butler and Mary Jane (Brett) . This would appear to be the birth record for the first born son of Denis and Mary Jane, listed on both of their death certificates.
Indeed, in the period 1850 – 1890, the only children born to a Denis Butler in NSW or Victoria are those listed on the death certificate for Denis and Mary Jane Brett. This includes spelling the father’s name as DENIS or DENNIS.
It is worth noting the change in the name of the first born son between his birth certificate, his mother’s death certificate and his father’s death certificate.
On his own birth certificate and his mother’s death certificate, he is recorded as Michael James.
On his father’s death certificate, he is named as James M. This suggests that he may have been known within the family as James, despite his first name actually being Michael. It is possible that informant for Denis’ death certificate (Bernard) only knew his oldest brother as James.
Given that there is no “James Henry” recorded as being born in Ballarat to a father “Denis” in the period 1850 – 1890, it seems likely that James Henry Butler is in fact Michael James Butler. This is based upon them both having a father called Denis, both being around the same age (James Henry 34 in 1900, whilst Michael James would have been 35-36), and them both being born in Ballarat (if the information on James Henry’s marriage certificate is to be believed.
Whilst there is no firm documentary linkage between James Henry and Denis, this theory appears to be the best one. As there appears to be little reporting of Michael James / James Henry, it is believed that he may have moved away from Bathurst where the rest of his family lived, and eventually found himself in Cowra. His movements over the period 1875 (the death of his mother) and 1900 (his marriage) are unclear, and require further research.
So what then became of James Henry Butler? Family legend has it that was reported to have died and been buried at Lake Cargellico in NSW approximately 1920 – 1925. So how did he come to be there?
The 1903 Electoral Role shows a James Henry Butler (saddler) and a Margaret Butler (domestic duties) in Cowra. On 31 March 1908, the Sydney Morning Herald lists a James Butler as bankrupt (file number 17695). It is uncertain whether this is the same James Butler. On 6 Feb 1911, the Bathurst Times reports in its Cowra News that a fire broke out in the main street in the buildings occupied by James Butler, saddler. The structure was completely destroyed.
It is believed that the possible bankruptcy in 1908, the loss of the business in 1911 may have been too much for James Henry. He either abandoned his family, or set off seeking other employment opportunities to support them.
Using the family legend of James Henry being buried in Lake Cargellico, it was possible that he found his way to this area, where he found employment as a rabbitter.
There is a report in the Lachlander and Condobolin Recorder on 24 July 1918, about the death of an unknown rabbiter on Boorabil.
A death certificate was found for a James Butler, rabbiter, about 60 yo, deceased on 17 July 1918 at Boorabil, Cargeillco. It does not list any marriage or children but records place of borth as Bathurst, NSW.
It seems likely that this James Butler was my great grandfather James Henry Butler (also known as Michael James Butler). As he was away from home, there was no one who would have known him to provide more accurate details about his death. As the family never seems to have received formal notification about his death, it is further assumed that he had abandoned his family in Cowra by this stage.
I have the various NSW and Vic BDM document references, if anyone is after them. I've also tried to do a bit of digging on the other descendants of Denis and Mary Jane, to see if that reveals anything, but so far without any joy.
I hope that this helps, and if you think my theory is incorrect, please let me know. If you have any info that can assist with this roadblock, I'd appreciate it.
First time poster here. Great to see you all looking into my great grandparents, as I am also hitting a road block with them. Are you working from their descendants as I am, or their ancestors? I'm happy to tell you what I know and what I have concluded.
My grandfather was James William Butler. He was born in Cowra on 19 July 1901. His birth certificate records his father as James Henry Butler, 35yo, born in Ballarat, Victoria, and his mother as Margaret Whittaker, 23yo, born in Cowra, NSW.
James Henry Butler and Margaret Whittaker were married on 13 June 1900. Their marriage certificate lists the parents of James Henry Butler as being Denis Butler and unknown wife (deceased).
There is no record of a James Henry Butler born to a Denis Butler in the period 1860 – 1870 in either NSW or Victoria.
There is a Denis Butler (22yo) who married a Mary Jane Brett (18yo) on 18 November 1862, in Bathurst. Denis Butler and Mary Jane Brett had six children :
- Michael James, approx. 1864
- John Thomas, born 21 May 1867 , Mount Pleasant, Bathurst.
- Denis, approx. 1870
- Bernard, approx. 1871
- Catherine Ann, approx. 1873
- William, born 4 January 1875 , Generals Gate, Bathurst.
The births of all the children, except for Michael James, are recorded on the NSW Births, Deaths and Marriages. However, there is no record of a James Henry Butler being born to Denis Butler or Mary Jane Brett.
On Mary Jane’s death certificate, her first born son is recorded as Michael James, 10yo, in January 1875.
On Denis’ death certificate, his first born son is recorded as James M., 50yo, in August 1915.
My great grandfather, James Henry Butler, gives his age at the time of his marriage as 34, lists his father’s name as Denis, and his place of birth as Ballarat, on his marriage certificate. This would suggest that he was born around 1866.
Expanding the search to include Victoria (where James Henry Butler claims he was born), we find a record for a Michael James Butler, born to Denis Butler and Mary Jane (Brett) . This would appear to be the birth record for the first born son of Denis and Mary Jane, listed on both of their death certificates.
Indeed, in the period 1850 – 1890, the only children born to a Denis Butler in NSW or Victoria are those listed on the death certificate for Denis and Mary Jane Brett. This includes spelling the father’s name as DENIS or DENNIS.
It is worth noting the change in the name of the first born son between his birth certificate, his mother’s death certificate and his father’s death certificate.
On his own birth certificate and his mother’s death certificate, he is recorded as Michael James.
On his father’s death certificate, he is named as James M. This suggests that he may have been known within the family as James, despite his first name actually being Michael. It is possible that informant for Denis’ death certificate (Bernard) only knew his oldest brother as James.
Given that there is no “James Henry” recorded as being born in Ballarat to a father “Denis” in the period 1850 – 1890, it seems likely that James Henry Butler is in fact Michael James Butler. This is based upon them both having a father called Denis, both being around the same age (James Henry 34 in 1900, whilst Michael James would have been 35-36), and them both being born in Ballarat (if the information on James Henry’s marriage certificate is to be believed.
Whilst there is no firm documentary linkage between James Henry and Denis, this theory appears to be the best one. As there appears to be little reporting of Michael James / James Henry, it is believed that he may have moved away from Bathurst where the rest of his family lived, and eventually found himself in Cowra. His movements over the period 1875 (the death of his mother) and 1900 (his marriage) are unclear, and require further research.
So what then became of James Henry Butler? Family legend has it that was reported to have died and been buried at Lake Cargellico in NSW approximately 1920 – 1925. So how did he come to be there?
The 1903 Electoral Role shows a James Henry Butler (saddler) and a Margaret Butler (domestic duties) in Cowra. On 31 March 1908, the Sydney Morning Herald lists a James Butler as bankrupt (file number 17695). It is uncertain whether this is the same James Butler. On 6 Feb 1911, the Bathurst Times reports in its Cowra News that a fire broke out in the main street in the buildings occupied by James Butler, saddler. The structure was completely destroyed.
It is believed that the possible bankruptcy in 1908, the loss of the business in 1911 may have been too much for James Henry. He either abandoned his family, or set off seeking other employment opportunities to support them.
Using the family legend of James Henry being buried in Lake Cargellico, it was possible that he found his way to this area, where he found employment as a rabbitter.
There is a report in the Lachlander and Condobolin Recorder on 24 July 1918, about the death of an unknown rabbiter on Boorabil.
A death certificate was found for a James Butler, rabbiter, about 60 yo, deceased on 17 July 1918 at Boorabil, Cargeillco. It does not list any marriage or children but records place of borth as Bathurst, NSW.
It seems likely that this James Butler was my great grandfather James Henry Butler (also known as Michael James Butler). As he was away from home, there was no one who would have known him to provide more accurate details about his death. As the family never seems to have received formal notification about his death, it is further assumed that he had abandoned his family in Cowra by this stage.
I have the various NSW and Vic BDM document references, if anyone is after them. I've also tried to do a bit of digging on the other descendants of Denis and Mary Jane, to see if that reveals anything, but so far without any joy.
I hope that this helps, and if you think my theory is incorrect, please let me know. If you have any info that can assist with this roadblock, I'd appreciate it.
Bathurst Free Press and Mining Journal (NSW : 1851 - 1904) - Monday 12 May 1890 p.2
Revision of Electoral Roll.
APPLICATIONS FOR INSERTION.
Dennis Butler, junr., Morrisset-street.— Admitted.
James M. Butler, Howick street.—J. W. Ashworth stated that Butler had been droving at the time the roll was taken and his name was therefore not inserted ; but he was a native of the town but had only been away four months. The Bench, by a majority, ruled that the application could not be entertained, as he had been four months from the place before the roll was taken.
Job Butler, William-street.— Admitted.
Revision of Electoral Roll.
APPLICATIONS FOR INSERTION.
Dennis Butler, junr., Morrisset-street.— Admitted.
James M. Butler, Howick street.—J. W. Ashworth stated that Butler had been droving at the time the roll was taken and his name was therefore not inserted ; but he was a native of the town but had only been away four months. The Bench, by a majority, ruled that the application could not be entertained, as he had been four months from the place before the roll was taken.
Job Butler, William-street.— Admitted.
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More than one James Butler in Bathurst area up to 1900 and more than one James Butler in Cowra area after 1900.
Very few references with any middle initial or middle name.
The Australian Star (Sydney, NSW : 1887 - 1909) - Monday 2 November 1908 p.2
LEGAL NOTICES.
IN THE SUPREME COURT OF NEW SOUTH WALES.
IN BANKRUPTCY.
NOTICE TO CREDITORS.
JAMES HENRY BUTLER, of Cowra, Saddler (No. 17,695),— A first account and plan of distribution showing payment of a dividend of 5s 10d in the £ on one preferential debt only, for rent (£19 10s).
Very few references with any middle initial or middle name.
The Australian Star (Sydney, NSW : 1887 - 1909) - Monday 2 November 1908 p.2
LEGAL NOTICES.
IN THE SUPREME COURT OF NEW SOUTH WALES.
IN BANKRUPTCY.
NOTICE TO CREDITORS.
JAMES HENRY BUTLER, of Cowra, Saddler (No. 17,695),— A first account and plan of distribution showing payment of a dividend of 5s 10d in the £ on one preferential debt only, for rent (£19 10s).
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There is more than one James Michael Butler in NSW. One died in 1926.
James M is a drover and James H is a saddler.
I don't mind the change of occupation but why drop Michael and adopt Henry as a middle name?
James Henry Butler 1913 New South Wales Murrumbidgee
Cowra in in the District of Lyndhurst.
1913 NSW Electoral Roll - LYNDHURST - COWRA
BUTLER Margaret, off Vanx-street, domestic duties
James Donald Butler 1913 New South Wales Lyndhurst
James Davis Butler 1913 New South Wales Lyndhurst
James M is a drover and James H is a saddler.
I don't mind the change of occupation but why drop Michael and adopt Henry as a middle name?
James Henry Butler 1913 New South Wales Murrumbidgee
Cowra in in the District of Lyndhurst.
1913 NSW Electoral Roll - LYNDHURST - COWRA
BUTLER Margaret, off Vanx-street, domestic duties
James Donald Butler 1913 New South Wales Lyndhurst
James Davis Butler 1913 New South Wales Lyndhurst
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