John and Samuel ROBERTS

[DaveHam9]

1851
HO107 Piece 1768 Folio 193 Page 20
Civil Parish: West Ham
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
Town: Stratford
County: Essex
Registration District: West Ham
Sub-RD: Stratford
ED: 7g
Address:
Thomas Roberts Head 46 Portrait painter Derbyshire ?
Mary Roberts Wife 41 Mawsbeth ?
Saml Roberts 19 Mawsbeth ?
Mary A Roberts 17
Sarah Roberts 15
John H Roberts son 12 Mawsbeth ?
Elizabeth L Roberts 5
Emma B Roberts 2
Walter A H Roberts 3 Wks


Samuel arrived 1851 - 1856

Samuel Hartley Roberts
Electoral Year: 1856
State: Victoria
District: Melbourne
Subdistrict: Eastern Hill


John arrived 1851 - 1863 ???

Ovens and Murray Advertiser (Beechworth, Vic. : 1857 - 1918 ) - Saturday 25 April 1863 p.2
MARRIED.
ROBERTS - ELLIS.-On Tuesday, April 21st, at the Wesleyan Church, Ford street, Beechworth, by the Rev Geo. B. Richards, Mr. John H. Roberts, to Miss Mary Anne Ellis.

 

[gibbo]

Samuel arrived 1851 - 1856

Narrowed his arrival down a little.

The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957)
Thursday 3 November 1853

GOLD Leaf Wanted ; apply to Samuel Hartley Roberts, Sign-writer and Painter, at the Town Hall, Swanston-street.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/4798995?

So arrival between 1851 - Nov 1853

 

[gibbo]

Unassisted VIC

ROBERTS SAMUEL aged 19 date NOV 1853 Ship MOBILE

Will these others on the same ship help confirm if his the right one or not?

ROBERTS DOROTHEA 25 NOV 1853 MOBILE

ROBERTS WM 27 NOV 1853 MOBILE

 

[DaveHam9]

Thanks gibbo.

Samuel should be 21 in 1853 and those other two are not with family in 1851.

This is the marriage:
Thomas Roberts & Mary Griffiths
26 August 1830 Manchester, Lancashire

so a 25 and a 27 year old in 1853 can't fit as older siblings.

 

[gibbo]

Im heading to bed, early morning as we have to be in townsville by 7 am at the lastest. See you in a few days.

 

[DaveHam9]

Ok. Hope things go well.

 

[emeltee]

Hi,

I found Samurl's baptism on familysearch. I presume you are aware that it was a nonconformist baptism?

Anyway I searched the BMD Register forany children of Thomas Roberts and Mary nee Griffiths and found the following

Samuel Roberts born 16 Nov 1831 baptised 4 Dec 1831 abode Water Street Mancheater

Mary Ellen Roberts born 20 Oct 1833 baptised 12 Jan 1834 abode 31 Lower Byron Street Manchester

Thomas Richards Roberts same details as for Mary Ellen

Sarah Roberts born 22 Mar 1836 baptised 17 Apr 1836 abode 21 Lower Byron Street Manchester

I thought the addresses may help you pinpoint whereabouts Mawsbeth was!

Emeltee

 

[emeltee]

Further to my last apparently it should read Byrom not Byron and Lower Byrom Street runs off Water Street in Manchester city centre.

Emeltee

 

[DaveHam9]

Hello Emeltee,

Thank you very much. Yes, Calvinist Methodist. No corresponding baptism for John found.

When I Google 'Mawsbeth' all I get are the posts on this site. :biggrin: Not sure what it should read.

Dave

 

[DaveHam9]

Unassisted to Victoria
ROBERTS ELIZTH 5 NOV 1852 HOPE B 016 004
ROBERTS ELLEN 18 NOV 1852 HOPE B 016 008
ROBERTS EMMA 4 NOV 1852 HOPE B 016 004
ROBERTS HARTLEY 14 NOV 1852 HOPE B 016 009
ROBERTS M J 47 NOV 1852 HOPE B 016 004
ROBERTS MARY 41 NOV 1852 HOPE B 016 004
ROBERTS SAM 20 NOV 1852 HOPE B 016 009
ROBERTS SARAH 16 NOV 1852 HOPE B 016 008
ROBERTS WALTER 1 NOV 1852 HOPE B 016 004

 

[diandgeoff]

Finally, I have found the immigration details for Thomas and Mary Roberts and family.
I looked sideways via the children.

The Roberts family arrive on the 'Hope' - Thomas arrives under the name M.J. Roberts (47) with Mary (41) and family: Sam (20), Ellen (18 ), Sarah (16), Hartley (14), Elizabeth (5), Emma (4) and Walter (1).

Arrived as Unassisted passengers.

The ship arrived in Port Melbourne November 1852.

Samuel comes as 'Sam'.
Mary Ellen comes as 'Ellen'.
John comes as 'Hartley'. (Full name is John Hartley)

Not sure why Thomas is using the initials 'M.J.'

 

[DaveHam9]

Perhaps it's supposed to be Mr. T.

 

[diandgeoff]

Thank you Dave.

I also found the immigration records for the family on the 'Hope'.

My husband, who works with me on Family History, suggests that as Thomas was a Painter (of Portraits) - that the family may have been on the Continent OR somewhere out of England at the time of the 1841 census.
I am interested in the 3 younger children - I do not believe that they are actually Thomas and Mary's natural children, but then they could be - it is interesting the age difference between John Hartley and Elizabeth Louisa 'Lizzie' - apparently that was how she was called by her family as I found the following marriage notice:

Taken from:

The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957)
Friday 3 August 1866

MARRIAGES.

MURRAY–ROBERTS.—On the 2nd inst., at St. Stephen's Church, Portland, by the Rev. James Yelverton Wilson, John Sinclair Murray, Esq., J.P., of Dunrobin, Casterton, eldest son of William Murray, Esq., Hobart Town, Tasmania, to Lizzie, third daughter of Thomas Roberts, Esq., Sydney. No cards.

Interestingly, the younger siblings (Emma, Lizzie and Walter) were apparently in Portland with Mary Ellen Croaker nee Roberts and Charles Croaker (so the marriage notices tell us).

Please note that Thomas Roberts appears to be living in Sydney. The marriage notice for Emma also reads similarly with Thomas Roberts in Sydney in 1868 as well which is when Emma gets married.

I have found a probable death for him in 1881 -

Taken from:

The Sydney Morning Herald (NSW : 1842 - 1954)
Wednesday 20 April 1881

THE FRIENDS of the deceased Mr. THOMAS ROBERTS are respectfully invited to attend his Funeral ;to move from his late residence, Mount-street, Pyrmont, on THURSDAY next, the 21st instant, at a quarter before 8 o'clock, to Necropolis. THOMAS, Undertaker, 111, York-street.

THE FRIENDS of Mr. JOHN ROBERTS are respectfully invited to attend the Funeral of his beloved FATHER, Mr. Thomas Roberts ; to move from his late residence, Mount-street, Pyrmont, on THURSDAY next, 21st instant, at a quarter before 8 o'clock, to Necropolis.

I have reason to understand that John Hartley Roberts was also living in Sydney.

Thanks for your suggestions

Diane.

 

[DaveHam9]

Thanks Diane.

I have not traced Thomas and Mary and all their children after arrival. My interest was Thomas Victor, son of John Hartley.

Perhaps they were out of England between the births of John and Lizzie.

Dave

 

[DaveHam9]

Death 3888/1922 ROBERTS JOHN H THOMAS MARY AUBURN ** 19 Jan 1922

The Sydney Morning Herald - Saturday 21 January 1922 p.14
VETERAN ISLAND TEACHER.
DEATH OF MR. J. H. ROBERTS.
Mr. John Hartley Roberts, whose death took place yesterday at Auburn, at the age of 84 years, was for 17 years the principal of the Royal Tongan College and the Director of Education for the Government of the little Kingdom.
Mr Roberts arrived in Sydney on the day following the wreck of the Dunbar. Educated at the Geelong Grammar School he elected to follow the teaching profession but spent some time visiting various goldfields both in Victoria and New South Wales and finally settled as the principal of a Wesleyan public school at Eldorado Victoria.
When the State schools came into existence he qualified with the highest passes in each department of his work and filled many positions in the Victorian Education Department.
In the year 1881 he accepted the position of administrator of the Tongan educational affairs and assisted in the formation of the Government college and schools under a compulsory system. He soon acquired a complete knowledge of the language and delivered his first address in Tongan within three weeks of his arrival. In the college of which he was the principal he made it possible for his students to carry on the Government of their own country for the past 10 years. He invented a system of music notation for the Tongans making it possible for all Tongans to read any music at sight and also a system of shorthand which they still use.
Twenty years ago he retired from the teaching profession and had been living at Auburn.
His sons are the Rev. S. C. Roberts of Penrith; Mr Joseph Roberts now in England; Mr Ernest and Captain Bert Roberts of Vaiholo Moree; Major George A. Roberts of Roseville; Mr J. H. Roberts of Homebush; and Lieut. T. V. Roberts of Mosman. His daughters are Miss M. E. and Miss V. L. Roberts of the Technical College.
The funeral will take place this afternoon.

Nepean Times (Penrith, NSW : 1882 - 1962) - Saturday 28 January 1922 p.2
John Hartley Roberts
HIS WORK AT TONGA.
...
Mr. Roberts came to Sydney in 1857, and passed through Penrith that year on the way to Mudgee and the goldfields there. ...

 

[DaveHam9]

Diane,

1913 NSW Electoral Roll - GRANVILLE—AUBURN
Roberts John Hartley Park-road independent means
Roberts Mary Ann Park-road domestic duties


I moved your Croaker topic to English board.

Here:

http://www.forum.familyhistory.uk.com/showthread.php?t=27204

Dave

 

[diandgeoff]

Thanks Dave,
I appreciate you moving my post to the English board.
I'm so sorry - I just could not work out how to do it.
Diane.