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John Edward ProctER

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Perth
#1
Hi again all,
Well I am really stumped with my great grandad! He was born 1868 in Salford according to census records - a few John ProctOR found. Cannot find marriage for him to Sarah JANE Firth - found marriage of John E Procter to Sarah ANN Firth in Manchester 1896.
Hard to find his birth records also -On FreeBMD I found a birth in 1869 for John Edward ProctER in Essex? Is that far from Salford? - all the John's on censuses I found have listed Manchester as their birthplace. I cannot go any further now as I cannot confirm a birth record and have no sibling information. Mum says she remembers he had an Irish accent and both his parents were from Ireland but the 1861, 1871, 1881, 1891 census records I am looking at being possibilities show head as being Henry born Salford and wife Mary born Clifden Galway Ireland is Irish. Found marriage of Henry Procter and Mary Lydon on IGI - Cathedral Manchester,1857. second cousin Stewart Procter thinks he had brothers Henry and Joseph and a sister called Cecily? Found on census that Henry and Joseph are same but sister is Elizabeth.
I have picture of his grave site at Agecroft cemetery buried with Sarah Jane. She died 18/3/1940 and he died 21/2/1946. My maternal grandparents the Clarks are also buried in the same plot.
If anyone can give me anywhere else to search apart from IGI, Ancestry, BMD, Freecen, Google search, Genforum, I would really appreciate a few fresh ideas.
Cheers, Karen
 

Lincoln Lad

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Fujairah, United Arab Emirates
#2
Hi Karen, Salford is a long way from Essex so unlikely to be him. Salford is a district of Manchester.

You may be unfortunate and not find a birth registration for him. Prior to 1875, although you were supposed to register births, it was the registrars job to find the births and record them, so inevitably some were missed. During 1875 it was made the responsibility of the parents to register the birth with the registrar under penalty of fine for not doing so.

Have you tried Lancs BMD for his birth?
Have you found a possible baptism for him?
 

emeltee

Loyal Member
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Liverpool
#3
Hi,
I ahve found a birth for a John Edward Procter in Salford in 1864. Could this be him?

Procter John Edward Dec 1864 Salford vol 8d page 42

The only marriage I could see is the one to Sarah Ann Firth. I'd be tempted to go with this one on the presumption that the Registrar got the name wrong. There are no other Procter/Firth marriages around that time so the one you have is highly likely to be the right one.

Emeltee
 
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386
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Location
Perth
#4
Hi Emeltee
No, not correct John Procter - mine definately born 1868/69 as his death age in 1946 is 77 - I have picture of gravestone. I found that entry too on Lancs BMD! A Firth family member contacted me - believe it or not a Sarah ANN Firth did marry a John ProctOR! Took the two of us about 6 months to realise our error - we were not related at all so we both had to delete about 100 people from our trees!
Thanks anyway, I have been searching over a year now so it would have been terrific for something concrete, plus I am at odds with mum over his birthplace - she swears he was Irish!!
Cheers
Karen
 
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386
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Location
Perth
#5
Hi Lincoln Lad
Thanks for that but I already found that entry and it's not him - that John ProctOR married a SARAH ANN FIRTH belive it or not - related somehow to my Sarah but not connected them as yet. Sarah Ann definately existed and is part of another tree. You are right regarding missing birth registers - cannot find his siblings either but found the marriage of a Henry Procter to Mary Lydon from Ireland - just need to be sure they are correct family
Cheers
Karen
Hi Karen, Salford is a long way from Essex so unlikely to be him. Salford is a district of Manchester.

You may be unfortunate and not find a birth registration for him. Prior to 1875, although you were supposed to register births, it was the registrars job to find the births and record them, so inevitably some were missed. During 1875 it was made the responsibility of the parents to register the birth with the registrar under penalty of fine for not doing so.

Have you tried Lancs BMD for his birth?
Have you found a possible baptism for him?
 

leefer

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swindon wilts
#7
Noticed halfway down link a phone number for Agecroft..could give them a ring and tell them the info you want...ime sure they would know the people to help you....If they were born in Salford..and were buried there also my feeling is getting in touch with someone there may help.
 
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386
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0
Location
Perth
#8
Hi Lee
Thanks for that, I am fairly new to this and no matter where I look I cannot find any info! I am going around in circles on Genuki. I cannot call Lancashire records as I live in Australia and work full time, the time difference of 8 hours is bad enough without the cost of the call! I have started trying sites for church records but it seems I cannot find any online databases freely available. This is driving me potty. I ended up sending away for the marriage cert of the John Procter and Sarah Ann Firth I found on the Lancashire BMD just in case it was transcribed incorrectly. I know Sarah's father was Charles Firth and she was born Cleckheaton Yorkshire. Her mother was Mary Birtwistle. I have very little on John except photo of the grave. Mum insists he was Irish but Irish databases show nothng and on censuses with Sarah and children he states he was born in Salford. Most of my ancestors seem to have been baptised and married at St Simons church but I can't find database records to search.
Cheers
Karen
 
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Location
Perth
#9
Well I have spent the last month searching again. Marriage cert I ordered arrived with details-
(folio was 8C 1073 Chorlton 1895)
John Procter aged 25, joiners mechanic and Sarah Ann Firth aged 25, garment maker.
Father - Henry Procter - occupation Sawyer
Father Charles Firth occupation wire drawer (same occupation as Sarah JANE'S)
Address 3 Brown.....(indiciferable) Street. Witnesses Ernest and Ellen Morpeth.
They didn't live Chorlton but Salford. Mum said John met her when he went to Yorkshire to work. I have tried to find record of marriage in Yorkshire - she was born in Bristol and her and her family were in Simon St Greengate on 1891census. So this must be wrong unless I have been attaching records for the wrong person altogether.
1911 census says they were married for 15 years. He is 3 years older than her on this and all other census records yet this couple on cert are same age.I have found a few other marriages for John Edward Procter but not to a Sarah Jane anything! My other conclusion is maybe she married someone else and was widowed when she married him? I can only find one of their children's birth entries - Harold born 1913 and states maiden name as Firth.
PLEASE HELP ME!!!! I have exhaused all the avenues that I can think of - even tried looking for an Edward Procter marriage in case his name is wrong. FreeBMD has nothing either. Lancashire Parish records I searched on Ancestry had nothing? What do I do now?
Karen :'(



Hi Lee
Thanks for that, I am fairly new to this and no matter where I look I cannot find any info! I am going around in circles on Genuki. I cannot call Lancashire records as I live in Australia and work full time, the time difference of 8 hours is bad enough without the cost of the call! I have started trying sites for church records but it seems I cannot find any online databases freely available. This is driving me potty. I ended up sending away for the marriage cert of the John Procter and Sarah Ann Firth I found on the Lancashire BMD just in case it was transcribed incorrectly. I know Sarah's father was Charles Firth and she was born Cleckheaton Yorkshire. Her mother was Mary Birtwistle. I have very little on John except photo of the grave. Mum insists he was Irish but Irish databases show nothng and on censuses with Sarah and children he states he was born in Salford. Most of my ancestors seem to have been baptised and married at St Simons church but I can't find database records to search.
Cheers
Karen
 
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Sheffield
#10
Firstly census records can be misleading ie. they are not always accurate for birthdate. There is always the thought that he might have lived in Ireland for a time and picked up an accent. There is also the chance that your mother was mistaken. I spent 2 years chasing a Scottish relative to find that his family was 10 generations Cumbrian and Lancastrian and had never been near Scotland.
 
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Location
Perth
#11
Hi Duckweed
Thanks for that,I think Mum is probably wrong but her sister Hilda in Salford was the one who told her he was Irish and that he met Sarah in Yorkshire so it's probably me who has the wrong family linked up?? That's why I started to research for a Yorkshire marriage, but zilch again. This is driving me insane, it really is. I can't understand why his birth and even his marriage is not recorded SOMEWHERE !!! LOL. No-one in the family has any records of BDM either. Stewart Procter is my mum's cousin (Harolds's son)and he has the same info as me and is stumped too.
Thanks for taking the time to reply, I really appreciate it
Karen :)
 
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Sheffield
#12
Chorlton is part of Manchester. I have looked everywhere for any other marriage date and the Chorlton one is the only one that fits the surnames. Proctor is quite a common name in Lancashire.
 
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Sheffield
#13
I don't suppose John Edward could in fact have been born in Yorkshire and that is where the yorkshire connection comes from? I have found a John Henry born Jun 1868 in Chorlton Lancs but can't see how they could have got middle name wrong.
 
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Exeter
#14
Hi Karen

You sound so desperate !! I am sure that somehow we can find the right birth and marriage taken slowly.

I will this arvo have a look through the births and see what I come up with.
No promises !!

Maddie
 
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Exeter
#15
Hi Karen

What a family !!!!

I found one birth
1867 John Edward Procter Rochford 4a 203

otherwise zilch ! As we know Essex is a long way from Manchester way.

I cannot seem to find a marriage either that matches

Very sorry

Maddie
 
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#16
Hi Karen

Can we start at the very beginning ? Have you got your grandparents marriage certificate ? Then their birth certificates ? If so would you be willing to give us the details.

I am not being rude when I say, forget what your mother says, as mine led me up the garden path in so many ways. It is better to start with what you actually know and have proved to yourself that it is right. They might have had an Irish accent or come from Ireland, but it could be moons ago or a generation or two !!

If you could let us share with you what information you know you have, and we will try to take it from there.

Maddie
 
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#17
I'm confused. Is he definitely John Edward Procter or plain John Procter? 1901 census has a John Procter aged 33 years Machine Joiner born Manchester , Sarah Jane aged 30 Cleckheaton Yorkshire (there's your yorkshire connection) Children Ellen 4 born Salford and Alice 3-4 months old. What you need is birth certificate of one of John's children which would list his address and occupation and that would make it easier to trace him.
 

juliejtp

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#18
Hi Karen,

The marriage witnesses on John and Sarahs marriage certificate Ernest and Ellen Morpeth, Ernest married in 1889 Salford one of the brides listed is a Ellen Firth and Sarah J had a sister Ellen.
 
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#20
Could this be Sarah Jane?
1881 census
Charles Firth 1843 Bierley Lane, Yorks, Wire Drawer
Mary Firth 1840 Salford Lancs,
Annie Firth daughter 1867 Salford Lancs worsted spinner
Ellen Firth daughter 1869 Salford Lancs worsted twister
Sarah J Firth daughter 1871 Cleckheaton Yorks worsted doffer
Sam Firth son 1873 Cleckheaton Yorks scholar
Polly Firth daughter 1875 Broughton Lancs
Harry Firth son 1878 Salford Lancs
James Firth son 1881 Cleckheaton
Address Victoria Street Cleckheaton Bradford Yorks
 

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