Joseph Allen to Rebecca Stevens.

[p.risboy]

I maybe repeating myself posting this, but need assurance or help to allay my fears.

Most of this is from the Lanchbury site, and Anc.

Joseph Allen, married Rebecca Stevens 29 Sept 1838 @ Bledlow, Bucks. Son of Ralph Allen.

Joseph Allen was a widow at the time. Rebecca Stevens, spinster.

Children.
All, mmn of Stevens.
John 1838. Bledlow.
George 1840. Bledlow.
Sophy(Sopial). 1844. Bledlow.

1851 census.
Joseph Allen
Age 35
abt 1816
Relation Head
Born Bledlow, Buckinghamshire.
C.P.- Bledlow
Reg dist. - Wycombe
S.R.D. West Wycombe
ED - 4a
H.S.No. 62
Piece-1720
Folio - 608
Page - 15
Joseph Allen. 35. (Age seems alright, but not sure really....could be 55 years old).
Rebecca Allen. 38
John Allen. 12
George Allen. 10
Sopial Allen. 7
View attachment 3869

1841 census.

Joseph Allen
Age 45
abt 1796
Born - Buckinghamshire, England
Civil parish - Bledlow With Bledlow Ridge
Hundred-Aylesbury
Buckinghamshire
R.D. Wycombe
Sub-reg dist. Princes Risborough
Piece - 40
Book. 5
Folio. 7
Page.8
Joseph Allen. 45. ag lab. (The age seems correct).
Rebecca Allen. 25
John Allen. 2
George Allen. 1

And finally, there is this burial. ...phia wife of Joseph Allen Bledlow 23 Apr 1837, age 52.
This burial/death, would fit the age to first wife of Joseph Allen.


So. what do you reckon.

Steve.

 

[emeltee]

Something is definitely wrong somewhere.

The only baptism I can find for Joseph Allen is 1821 son of Ralph and Elizabeth who married in April 1821. Unless he was born a few years before the marriage of course.

Can't find a marriage for a Joseph Allen to a Sophia but if she was 52 when she died then she would have been born in 1785 - a bit of a difference between 1785 and 1821 - it would make her 36 years older than Joseph born 1821

Joseph is down in the 1841 Census as being 45 yet in 1851 he is only 35.
Neither age fits with a birth year of 1821. Both Census images clearly give the ages you have stated.

Both the Launchbury site and the Gro have a death for a Joseph Allen in 1870 aged 49 which fits with the 1821 baptism (GRO ref Jun 1870 Wycombe 3a 309). However....

In 1861 (and 1871,1881)Rebecca is a widow and has changed he pob to Chinnor, Oxon. There are several deaths in Wycombe between 1851 and 1861 for a Joseph Allen. Three are for children and of the two remaining one is 73 and one is 82 and both died in 1860. The 73 year old would have had a yob of 1797 which is pretty close to the yob of 1796 given in the 1841 Census.

Therefore I think the age given in 1851 should read 55 not 35 (even though looking at the image I would say 35 as well)

Consequently Joseph may still be the son of Ralph and Elizabeth as per fs, and he may well have been baptised in 1821 but he must have been born years earlier, what year will never be known as the only baptism, which is all you will find, took place in 1821 and no birth date given. Even if he was born 1796 that would still have made him a good 10 years younger than the (So)phia who died aged 52 in 1837.

This is getting complicated. I hope you have been paying attention to my ramblings.

Emeltee

 

[p.risboy]

:2fun:........You're just about where I'm at.

I know ages can differ in the earlier census, even given the d.o.b in 1851......if it's 35. But the age in the 1841 census.....is reasonbly clear....but the rounding up and down, of the age thing isn't helping.

I've asked BucksFHS for a marriage, baptism and burial search for Joseph Allen, so I guess that might give some clarity.....or more confusion.

Another family tree has a word pro document(Story), for the Allens......but it seems to be a cut and paste of the Lanchbury site(almost), so that's no use to me.:2fun:

I'll keep on looking, as some small clues are coming through for other Allens and Stevens families.


Steve.

 

[Ellie7]

Rebecca
Last name
Stevens
Name note
Marriage year--1838
Marriage date---29 Sep 1838
Marriage place
Father's first name(s)---James
Father's last name---Stevens
Spouse's first name(s)---Joseph
Spouse's last name---Allen
Spouse's father's first name(s)--Ralph
Spouse's father's last name---Allen
Residence--Buckingham, England
County--Buckinghamshire
Country--England
Record setEngland Marriages 1538-1973

Ellie

 

[p.risboy]

Thanks Ellie.

Unravelling this lot is a pain in the b*tt.:2fun::2fun:

I think his father Ralph Allen, was born c1738 ish....but still working that through, either in Bledlow, or Princes Risborough. !!

I've managed to make good headway, but a very long way to go. I'm still waiting for his first marriage to Sophie, his baptism and burial from BucksFHS. Fingers crossed he got married in Bucks. I'll check in Oxfordshire, just in case.

IF Sophie was born c1785......there are 3 or 4 possible baptisms for Sophie/Sophia in Bledlow, Bucks. But that is pure speculation she came from there.

It seems his first daughter was Sophy/Sopial, so that may be a clue.

Thanks for looking.

Steve.

 

[emeltee]

I've found a marriage between a Ralph Allen and an Elizabeth Brown 20 May 1755 Buckinghamshire (no specific place given). According to the Launchbury site a Ralph Allen and Elizabeth had the following children in Bledloe
John 1755
Ralph 1757
Sarah 1759
Thomas 1762
Job 1763
Jacob 1776

The Ralph born 1757 is a reasonable candidate to father a Joseph circa 1796 but cannot find a marriage or a baptism to support this.

Emeltee

 

[p.risboy]

I've found a marriage between a Ralph Allen and an Elizabeth Brown 20 May 1755 Buckinghamshire (no specific place given). According to the Launchbury site a Ralph Allen and Elizabeth had the following children in Bledloe
John 1755
Ralph 1757
Sarah 1759
Thomas 1762
Job 1763
Jacob 1776

The Ralph born 1757 is a reasonable candidate to father a Joseph circa 1796 but cannot find a marriage or a baptism to support this.


Emeltee

Marriage
20 May 1755 • Bledlow, Holy Trinity Church

Yes, Elizabeth Brown was baptised to Thomas & Elizabeth Brown, 14 Dec 1735, Bledlow, Holy Trinity Church.
Ralph Allen was baptised 10 Dec 1732, St.Marys. Princes Risborough, Bucks. to Ralph Allen(c.1710 -1762)* @ P.Ris. and Elizabeth(nee.Dossett)*. *Married, 31 Jan 1732, St.Marys. Princes Risborough, Bucks.

They had a habit of dodging backwards and forwards between Princes Risborough and Bledlow.

Some of what I have in the 'old' tree is still 'unspoilt', but there is plenty that is.

The Lanchbury site is very good, but she never had the access to Bishops transcripts, if I recall rightly. She got all her info from the actual, and very damaged Church records

Steve.

 

[p.risboy]

Joseph Allen married Sophia Ing. 13 Oct 1807 at Holy Trinity, Bledlow. by Banns.
Witnesses - John Ing, Elizabeth Allen & William Fryday.

No baptism in Bucks for Joseph Allen in that time frame.

Burial - Holy Trinity - 5 July 1860. Joseph Allen, aged 73, of Bledlow.

I think due to the very bad condition of the registers, the baptism maybe lost. But I'll try Oxfordshire, and see if that bears fruit.

Steve.

 

[emeltee]

I know there are discrepancies re Joseph's age/dob but I'm not sure that the Joseph Allen who married Sophia and the Joseph Allen who married Rebecca are one and the same person.

Presuming that the Joseph who married Sophia was a similar age to her, she was 52 when she died in 1837 which gives a yob of c1775.

The Joseph who married Rebecca gives his age in 1841 as 45 which gives a dob of c1796. The Joseph buried Bledlow 1860 (which fits with Rebecca being a widow in 1861) has an age of 73 which gives a dob of 1797. The age in the 1841 Census and at the burial are too close to be coincidence.

The Joseph who married Rebecca cannot have been the same Joseph who married Sophia as he would have been about 12 in 1808.

Emeltee

 

[DaveHam9]

Emeltee...

The Joseph who married Rebecca cannot have been the same Joseph who married Rebecca ...

Dave

 

[p.risboy]

The only other Joseph Allen buried in s similar time frame, is Joseph Allen aged 81.

He was born c1781 in Ellesborugh, Bucks. 1841 in Ellesborough, 1851 in High Wycombe. 1861 in Chipping Wycombe.

Buried - Ellesborough. 7 Dec 1861, aged 81, of High Wycombe.

No other candidates for a death/burial with an age that fits.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Amersham. St Mary
2 May 1851 Joseph ALLEN aged 72 of Coleshill, Amersham

Aylesbury. St Mary.
1 Nov 1773 Joseph ALLEN son of Thos
27 Jan 1781 Joseph ALLIN, infant
7 Jan 1793 Joseph ALLEN, Labourer, PP

Bledlow. Holy Trinity.
5 Jul 1860 Joseph ALLEN aged 73 of Bledlow.

Bledlow Ridge. St Paul.
19 Apr 1870 Joseph ALLEN aged 49 of Bledlow Ridge. (This is the one born/baptised 1821, Bledlow.).??.

Burnham.
11 Mar 1780 Joseph ALLEN

Chesham Bois.
1 Dec 1824 Joseph ALLEN aged 77 of Chesham Bois, pauper

Edlesborough.
19 Nov 1786 Joseph ALLEN son of Jacob
18 Nov 1773 Joseph ALLEN
14 Aug 1811 Joseph ALLEN, infant
7 Dec 1861 Joseph ALLEN aged 81 of High Wycombe

Eton. St John the Evangelist
3 Sep 1806 Joseph ALLEN infant son of John, Pipemaker
Foscott St Leonard 1591 - 1968 Published
17 Jun 1822 Joseph ALLEN aged 9w of Foscott.

High Wycombe All Saints.
8 Nov 1801 Joseph ALLEN
1 Jan 1852 Joseph ALLEN aged 3 of Wycombe.

Hughenden. St Michael & All Angels.
9 Sep 1821 Joseph ALLEN aged 4m of Hitchenden.

Little Marlow. St John the Baptist.
8 Jun 1859 Joseph ALLEN aged 7m of Coldmoorholm, Little Marlow.

Little Kimble All Saints.
21 Nov 1779 Joseph ALLEN

Marsh Gibbon St Mary the Virgin.
19 Apr 1825 Joseph ALLEN, infant of Marsh Gibbon
23 Jun 1837 Joseph ALLEN, infant of Marsh Gibbon

Great Marlow All Saints with Holy Trinity.
23 Apr 1784 Joshua ALLEN son of Thos of the parish, registered 24 Apr
24 May 1802 Joseph ALLEN aged 79 of the parish, P
30 Jun 1807 Joseph ALLEN aged 57.

Mursley St Mary the Virgin .
7 Dec 1782 Joseph ALLEN, poor

North Crawley St Firmin.
2 Jan 1850 Joseph ALLEN aged 59 of North Crawley.

Preston Bissett St John the Baptist 1577 - 1889
27 Nov 1848 Joseph ALLEN aged 86 of Preston Bissett

Princes Risborough St Mary.
30 Dec 1848 Joseph ALLEN aged 29 of the town.

Saunderton St Nicholas with St Mary.
14 Jul 1811 Joseph ALLEN aged 7 son of John & Mary, Labourer of Lockington.

Stoke Poges St Giles.
11 Aug 1868 Josephine Joyce ALLEN aged 3m of Slough.

Stoke Goldington St Pete.
27 Sep 1865 Joseph ALLEN aged 50 of Stony Stratford.

Stoke Mandeville St Mary the Virgin.
30 Mar 1827 Joseph ALLEN aged 21 of Stoke Mandeville.

Upton cum Chalvey St Lawrence.
14 Feb 1867 Joseph Edward ALLEN aged 4 of Slough.

Wotton Underwood All Saints.
9 Sep 1823 Joseph ALLEN aged 4d of Wotton
-----------------------------------------------------------

EDITED - Rebecca Stevens was baptised 14 Jan 1816 @ Chinnor, Oxfordshire. To James & Mary. The marriage gives fathers name as James.


I think I'm losing the plot here.:2fun::2fun:

Steve.

 

[p.risboy]

Just another couple of snippets, this is correct in my mind, are the address at the time of marriage was Church End, which fits the 1841 census, and Perry End, is just around the corner, from Church End in 1851.

Also, there's this......Witnesses at this 1825 marriage. (Lanchbury site).

Thomas Cherry, of this parish bachelor and Sarah Morris, of this parish spinster by banns 11 Oct 1825 in presence of Joseph Allen, Sophia Allen, Grace Fryday, Wm Fryday


Steve.

 

[p.risboy]

If my Maths serve me correctly......If Joseph Allen is buried in 1860, with an age of 73. Surely his approximate year of birth is 1786 -1788.

As with Sophia Allen, buried in 1837, with an age of 52, her approximate year of birth would be 1784 -1786.

I need a calculator, or someone else does.:2fun::2fun:

Born.....Age....Buried.
1785. + 52. = 1837. Sophia.
1787. + 73. = 1860. Joseph.


Steve.

 

[emeltee]

You are quite right Steve. I admit to failing Maths O level - never was any good at sums!

So Joseph Allen who married Sophia is most likely to be the Joseph Allen who married Rebecca - so what happened re the ages in the Censuses?

Emeltee

 

[p.risboy]

My thoughts are that the 1841 is correct but rounded out......and the 1851 is wrong, but image is difficult to get to grips with, but it's sort of in between a 5 and a 3. Plus, they could also have been 'rounded' to compound the matter,obviuosly not by that much for Joseph.

The first 2 children births(1841+1851), show Stevens as mmn. And the 3rd in 1851 shows mmn of Stevens.

I will say I'm not 100% convinced, but the evidence seems to be stacking up, that it seems correct.
It's at times like this, I wish the enumerators could write in upper case, and with a Parker pen.:2fun:

I will look at the 1851 image again, and try and improve the image somehow by photo shopping it, but not changing it. That will be for others to make their mind up about it all.

The total lack of other marriages for Joseph and Sophie Ing(or otherwise), and to a Rebecca Stevens, (or otherwise)........I'm almost there. If the Allens stayed in the Bledlow district, the marriages were never that far away.

Plus the Joseph Allen, c1821/2, Bledlow is accounted for. (Burial - Bledlow Ridge. St Paul.19 Apr 1870 Joseph ALLEN aged 49 of Bledlow Ridge).

Just one stroke of a pen on the 1851 census, was all it needed to clear this up.

Damn Allens.......always a problem.:2fun:

Steve.

PS. My maths is average, but a calculator is a big help for me......and my fingers and toes.:biggrin:

 

[p.risboy]

Here's a photo of The Red Lion Pub, which I took in 2010. If you look behind the roof of the Grey Volkswagon car, there is a gap in the hedge. That is the start of the footpath from Bledlow, to Bledlow Ridge(which didn't get it's own Church until 1868 ).

There is a photo on the Lanchbury site that shows a part of this footpath/bridleway.

View attachment 3871


Steve.

 

[emeltee]

The ages stated in the Censuses are irrelevant as they are completely wrong.

Joseph died 1860 purportedly aged 73 which gives a birth year of 1787 (checked it on the calculator to be certain) therefore his age on the 1841 Census should be 54 or 49-54 allowing for the rounding down. On the 1851 Census he should be 64. Even if you do make the 35 into 55 it is still 10 years out.

However everything is pointing to him being the Joseph Allen who married Sophia and Rebecca so I'd be inclined to ignore the ages given and just go with the flow. Finding a baptism for him would help enormously.

Emeltee

 

[p.risboy]

I think a few certs are on the cards. His death cert for one. And maybe two of the childrens birth certs.

It's a shame that Sophia Allen died just before official registration, by a few months.
But yes.....a baptism would be ideal.

I did check the Lanchbury site for any Joseph's that were baptised around the same time, as it does seem the Allens 'adopt' some children. But none popped up with any satisfaction.
But considering the condition of what she looked at, I guess his baptism got trashed, or it may not have happened, but I'm sure it did.


Steve.

 

[p.risboy]

I am such a dunce at times.

There is a researcher, connected to BucksFHS, but is a researcher at the Bucks Archives in Aylesbury.
Being a member of BucksFHS, I am entitled to 2 hours of free research a year.

Sooooo, I'll ask him look at the actual Bledlow Parish Regs, to see if he can find a baptism for Joseph Allen.

He had found a burial for me, a few years ago, which did not aapear in the BucksFHS transcripts for Stoke Mandeville, Bucks, even though they held it in their burial database.

I'll send an email, and live in hope he can find it.


Steve.