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Thanks for finding that Dave.

Brimpsfield is between Gloucester and Cirencester. The rest of the family were in the Worcester and Shropshire areas in 1881. I'm guessing those areas are not close.

I definately haven't come across Brimpsfield or the name Causon in my search so far but every bit of info is worth keeping with this family being so hard to research.

Thanks again,
Getting back to these KNOTT's and where the children Henry 22, John 19, Emma 16, had disappeared to in 1861.

Here is a bit of background I posted previously:-

1817 Christening at Cleobury Mortimer of Henry Mayne KNOTT - parents Richard and Harriet.
1838 - Marriage at Wolverhampton of Henry Mayne KNOTT and Mary Ann ROGERS.
1841 Census - HO107/1195/4/16/25 Address: Bromsgrove Worcestershire
Henry KNOTT 20 - cooper - N
Mary 25 N - birthplace?
Henry 3 N - this is who I think later became George Henry Williams b.c1839
John 3 mo Y
Labright COX 50 - nail mr -Y
Emma COX 12 Y
1851 Census
HO107/1985 208 4
Stottesden, Shropshire Village
Henry Knott, head, 33, Cooper, b. Cleobury Mortimer
Mary Ann, wife, 30, b. Radnor Llandrinden?
Henry, son, 12, at home errand boy, b. Salop Ludlow - later known as GHWilliams
John, son, 9, scholar, b. Worcester Bromsgrove (I think)
Emma, dau, 6, scholar, b. Cleobury Mortimer
1855 - Marriage of Henry Mayne KNOTT to Martha DODD

1861 Bridgnorth census.

RG9/1849 1+ Enum. District 1. Folio 12B. Sch 103.
33 High Street, Bridgnorth.

Henry M KNOTT, Head, Mar, 40, Cooper, Cleobury Mortimer, Shropshire.
Martha KNOTT, Wife, Mar, 30, Bewdley, Worcs.
In the same property as a REEDE or REESE family.

In the Bridgnorth Municipal cemetery is the burial of Martha KNOTT, age 44, wife of Henry. Buried 16 Sept 1866. Grave No. 1306 Unconsecrated ground.
SO WHERE WERE ALL THE CHILDREN IN 1861? Henry Jnr aka GHWilliams would be 22, John 19 and Emma 16.

Question 1:-
1851 - has Mary Ann KNOTT nee Rogers is in the Census
1855 - Mary Ann's husband marries again - is there a death record for Mary Ann KNOTT between 1851 - 1855?

Question 2:-
1851 - is the last time the children Henry (later known as GHWilliams), John and Emma are seen with their parents.
Could their mother Mary Ann have still been alive and the children are with her? Has she returned to her birthplace, family in Wales (presuming that is where she is from? Has she remarried to a WILLIAMS and this is where the Williams name connects to the family?

Question 3:-
1866 - Henry Snr's 2nd wife Martha is buried in unconsecrated ground. Could this mean that Henry Snr. had married Martha when not divorced from Mary Ann?

In 1865 Henry Jnr, now known as George Henry WILLIAMS, marries Jane PALMER in Deerhurst Gloucester and names his first four children born between 1867 - 1877 with the WILLIAMS surname. His last child born 1884 is born KNOTT.

Any unravelling, thoughts and ideas welcome:)
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Hello Sashar,

The closest I can find to Radnor Llandrinden? is Llandrindod - HERE

So far the answers to your questions are "I don't know" after searching.
Hi Daveham9,

I'll check out the link. I did google and came up with the same place but didn't come across the site you sent. Maybe I'll find something there.

Thanks for searching. I think this might always remain a myster.

Sashar :)
There are lots of deaths 1851-1855 in England for Mary NOTT/KNOTT but considering the pob of daughter Emma this one seemed worth posting, although there may be a way to rule it out:

Deaths Sep 1854
Knott Mary Ann Cleobury M 6a 331

If Mary did return home to Wales and marry a WILLIAMS then that would not be recognised either so why would the children adopt the name WILLIAMS. Also, I think Henry was too old anyway to adopt the name of a step-father.

The bit I find most strange is the naming of the last child born 1884 as KNOTT. Are you sure about that?
Good points - I appreciate your input.

I was given this as the birth of Thomas KNOTT b. 1884:-
Birth registration of Thomas KNOTT in the December qtr of 1884 in Ludlow reg district vol 6a page 560.

You may be able to check that for me?

Yes, there is such a reg.

But I can't find a reg for Henry born abt 1839.
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The child born before Thomas was Annie and I have been given her birth details as sept Q 1881 Cleobury Mortimer, Shropshire.
I don't know if she was born as a KNOTT or a WILLIAMS though.redf)

Could I ask you to check Annie's birth for me as it should narrow down the time of the name change. Her elder brother William was born a WILLIAMS in 1877 and her younger brother Thomas b.1884 was a KNOTT.

Thanks Dave,

I'm looking on Family Search and still can't find her - I appreciate your help.
OK - just located her on Free BMD.

Wonder if she married Ernest GOSLING in 1904 at Gloucester 6a 424.

Not sure if someone didn't post that to me at some stage but I couldn't connect things at that time. The family were in Gloucester in 1911 and her brothers also married between 1905-1909 in Gloucester.

I'll have to recheck all the postings.

Thanks so much for your help,
KNOTT in 1881 census, which I presume you have seen.

The name change is a real puzzle.

I can't find any of the three in 1861 or John or Emma at all after that.
But I can't find a reg for Henry born abt 1839.

I just saw your remark above.
I don't have anything in my file in regards to his birth. The year seems to have been deduced from the Census entries.

Are you hinting he could have been a ROGERS, his mother's maiden name?

Henry Knott and Mary Ann Rogers m. Sept Q 1838 Wolverhampton, Shropshire, Staffordshire - I believe.

I just saw your remark above.
I don't have anything in my file in regards to his birth. The year seems to have been deduced from the Census entries.

Are you hinting he could have been a ROGERS, his mother's maiden name?

Henry Knott and Mary Ann Rogers m. Sept Q 1838 Wolverhampton, Shropshire, Staffordshire - I believe.


Well, I did look using Henry/George NOTT/KNOTT/WILLIAMS but not ROGERS. :)

No ROGERS but omitting a given name there are two:

Births Dec 1837
WILLIAMS Male Cleobury & Mortimer 18 34
Births Mar 1838
Williams Male Cleobury Mortimer 18 38

Marriages Sep 1838
KNOTT Henry M Wolverhampton 17 276
ROGERS Mary Ann Wolverhampton 17 276

One question we have not asked - was he adopted? He has not changed to his 'mother's' maiden name ROGERS and he has not changed to a step-father's name so what other reasons for a change of name?
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I'll throw this one in the mix:

name: Henry Rogers
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 01 May 1838
baptism/christening place: LUDLOW,SHROPSHIRE,ENGLAND
birth date:
death date:
name note:
father's name:
father's birthplace:
father's age:
mother's name: Mary Anne Rogers
mother's birthplace:
mother's age:
indexing project (batch) number: C00680-3
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 918859
reference number:
I'm excited about that last birth :D
I think you have found him!

I was taking in your last post about the other WILLIAMS children but I'm more inclined to think that would be Henry's birth, as a ROGERS.

Maybe, his father was a WILLIAMS but didn't stay with/marry Mary Ann and therefore he is registered as a ROGERS.
Does that sound possible to you?

Wow - an amazing find, thankyou!
I can see no birth reg just that baptism record.

So the name change was made between 1851 and 1865 (the marriage) and back again between 1877 and 1881 Census.

If he could not marry as a KNOTT then I don't see he has any 'proof' he is a WILLIAMS. Why change his given name? Creating a whole new identity just to marry?
1841 Census - Henry Jnr. is noted as born Bromsgrove, Worcester
1851 Census - Henry Jnr. is noted as born Ludlow, Shropshire (where you found the baptism).

1841 Census - Mary (Henry Jnr's mother) is noted as born Bromsgrove, Worcester
1851 Census - Mary is noted as born Llandrinder, Radnorshire, Wales

Mary then disappears and husband Henry KNOTT marries again 1855.

1861 Henry Jnr. can't be found and neither can his siblings John and Emma.

So the name change was made between 1851 and 1865 (the marriage) and back again between 1877 and 1881 Census.

Amazingly, yes! From the last census Henry b.1838 can be found on (1851 ) until his marriage in 1865 where we know he is married as GHWilliams we don't know what name he uses.
Missing in 1861 Census.
His son William WILLIAMS is born in 1877 and Annie KNOTT in 1881, so he has changed to KNOTT between those births.

Don't suppose he used ROGERS at any time :rolleyes:

There was a George WILLIAMS in 1861 in Gloucester.
Let me check for that post.

Back soon,
from 1861 census
WILLIAMS, George Single M 22 1839 Ord seaman Gloucester, Gloucestershire

Crew of HMS DOnegal, 101 Guns capt Henry Broadhead, moored in Hamoaze
33 oficers, 394 Seaman, 93 Mariners, 46 Boys, 25 others.

Dave Lambert found that for me - I posted on 1861 Census board.

Doesn't give enough info to know if it is him but he did marry in Gloucester in 1865 and first two children born there.

William is a KNOTT. Do we have a marriage for William?

name: Henry Knott
age: 42
gender: Male
birth year: 1839
birthplace: Cleobury Mortim, Shropshire, England
relationship to head of household: Head
marital condition: Married
profession/occupation: Cooper
address: High Street
census place: Cleobury Mortimer, Shropshire, England
record type: Household
the national archives reference: RG11
piece/folio: 2625 / 17
page number: 26
Household Gender Age Birthplace
head Henry Knott M 42 Cleobury Mortim, Shropshire, England
wife Jane Knott F 35 Deerhurst, Gloucestershire, England
son Henry Knott M 10 Deerhurst, Gloucestershire, England
son John Knott M 7 Ross, Herefordshire, England
son William Knott M 3 Hales Owen, Worcestershire, England
William married as a KNOTT.
Marriages Sep 1909***
KNOTT*William Charles* *Gloucester*6a647**
MERRETT*Harriet Maude* *Gloucester*6a647**