Learning about UK records

[CFV]

Hello
I am South African in Australia and have been researching for a few years spending most of that time on my South African lines. I have investigated my English (Vincent m Richardson from Norwich) and Irish lines (Carson m Lester from Armagh Ireland by way of Glasgow Scotland, and a different Irish Carsonon the maternal side) from time to time. I have also reviewed the records on Familysearch and Ancestry, reviewed existing trees and have read up on UK records. For example I have successfully obtained birth certificates from Scotland people for Carson m Lester in Motherwell married in Armagh! I am now focusing on the UK ancestors. 2 Vincents migrated to South Africa, my great grandfather Vincent, Frederick Edgar 1872 and his brother Vincent, Charles Alfred. I have found most of their South Arican records.

I would appreciate some views on the following questions:

1) Using Vincent, Charles Edgar as a focus https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/9V4V-NB8
- Which is the right (?) birthplace when the birth registration record shows: Registration District: West HamCounty: EssexEvent Place: West Ham, Essex, England and a census record shows: Birthplace: Stratford, Essex? Using Google Maps the places are close to each other.

- Similarly the children's birth records and census records all show some variation of place area and parish - Were they moving around or that is where the census took place?
1861 census - Event Place: Norfolk, England, United KingdomEvent Place (Original): St Gregory, Norwich, Norfolk, EnglandCounty: Norfolk
1871 census - Event Place: Norfolk, England, United KingdomEvent Place (Original): St Stephen, Norfolk, EnglandSub-District: Mancroft
1881 census - Event Place: Norwich Heigham, Norfolk, EnglandRegistration District: Norwich
1901 census - Event Place: Norwich, Norfolk, England, United KingdomCounty: Norfolk

- Are the elector records essentially a voters role? For which governance body?

2) From Ancestry https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/167308162/person/202199603298/facts it looks like Vincent, Charles Edgar and his siblings and parents were paupers at Tendring Work House. I have found some online history about Tendring Work House.
a) Would I be able to find information specific or general about how Charles and his family entered the work house and then left? Where can I find some history on the local economic and social conditions in Norwich?

b) FamilySearch shows a link to both his parents and the records seem to correlate so how confident can I be (without anyone doing the detailed research for me) that these relationships are correct?

Thank you in advance for any reposne and assistance.

Regards
Clifton Vincent
Sydney

 

[DaveHam9]

Hello and welcome to the Forum.

That tree may or may no be correct. Nearly all trees on-line have errors of sorts. It has the birth at 1839 Stratford but there is this registration in 1837.

Births Dec 1837
VINCENT Charles Edgar - West Ham 12 199

That West Ham is the RD = Registration District. Many parishes and towns and villages in that district.

Stratford is a town in the Parish of West Ham in the Registration District of West Ham.

The 'Stratford' part might be correct and the year wrong. Both would need to be checked by looking at several things.

I'll let a UK-based member answer the question re workhouse and poor law records.

Re the links to the parents - I'd not rely on them being correct. The details may prove to be correct but I say check because I've seen too many errors on the on-line trees.

Dave

 

[CFV]

Thanks for the response Dave. Makes sense and I agree verification is always required when sections of trees have been built automatilcally r by helpful researchers piecing things together.
.
I will have a look at the 1937 Vincent Charles Edgar.

I guess place names on records would reflect the actual boundaries at the time and the accuracy of the record keeper and the cnsus participant 20 years after the event. I think that it is also complicated by the variation in "standardised" place names on FamilySearch, Ancestry and Geni. On my personal Gramps master version I am recording the actual place as recorded and then standardising to suburb or village or town etc name. The South African situation of births on farms (many farm names the same) or local districts not rally exisiting anymore make it a challeng.

Regards

 

[DaveHam9]

VINCENT, CHARLES EDGAR VINCENT - mother's maiden name not recorded
GRO Reference: 1837 D Quarter in WEST HAM UNION Volume 12 Page 199

Free to search the index but have to register

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

Place of birth on census records may or may not tally exactly with actual place of birth. Also ages may not be exact either for various reasons.

Dave

 

[DaveHam9]

There is this one in RD Norwich.

VINCENT, CHARLES EDWARD - mmn MOORE
GRO Reference: 1839 S Quarter in NORWICH Volume 13 Page 241


The GRO index has a few errors so 'Edward' may or may not be correct.

 

[solidrock2]

Hi, First of all as Dave said do not trust online tree's espacially Ancestry as a lot are copy and paste jobs. It would be good to find Edgar and Charlotte on the 1841 census and their marriage.

 

[DaveHam9]

VINCENT, FREDERICK EDGAR - RICHARDSON
GRO Reference: 1872 J Quarter in NORWICH Volume 04B Page 145

VINCENT, CHARLES ALFRED - RICHARDSON
GRO Reference: 1859 M Quarter in NORWICH Volume 04B Page 174
VINCENT, CHARLES ALFRED - RICHARDSON
GRO Reference: 1861 D Quarter in WOODBRIDGE Volume 04A Page 555

 

[DaveHam9]

Marriages Mar Qtr 1864
Richardson Agnes - Norwich 4b 259
Vincent Charles Edgar - Norwich 4b 259

1871
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFNK-Q2G

 

[solidrock2]

There is a marriage that maybe your Edgar and Charlotte in 1837 Bishopsgate, London.

Charlotte ColvinGender: FemaleMarriage Date: Aug 1837Marriage Place: St Botolph Aldgate, London, EnglandSpouse: Edgarr Vincent

 

[solidrock2]

In 1861 Edgar, Charlotte and Emma were living in Buxton, Norfolk. Edgar was a miller.
Edgar may of died in 1865...
VINCENT, EDGAR 62
GRO Reference: 1865 M Quarter in NORWICH Volume 04B Page 109

 

[DaveHam9]

Where is the birth reg for Emma with matching mmn?

Correct birth reg for Charles is a bit of a problem as census don't point to 1837. Perhaps there is no birth reg for several of the children.

VINCENT, RICHARD JOSIAS - COLVIN
GRO Reference: 1841 J Quarter in SAINT PANCRAS Volume 01 Page 317

VINCENT, WALTER OVID - COLVIN
GRO Reference: 1844 M Quarter in TENDRING Volume 12 Page 265

1851
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGVC-PDP

 

[solidrock2]

VINCENT, CHARLES EDGAR VINCENT -

GRO Reference: 1837 D Quarter in WEST HAM UNION Volume 12 Page

VINCENT, - COLVIN

GRO Reference: 1840 M Quarter in STEPNEY Volume 02 Page 496

VINCENT, RICHARD JOSIAS COLVIN

GRO Reference: 1841 J Quarter in SAINT PANCRAS Volume 01 Page 317

VINCENT, WALTER OVID COLVIN

GRO Reference: 1844 M Quarter in TENDRING Volume 12 Page 265

VINCENT, EMMA COLVIN

GRO Reference: 1845 S Quarter in TENDRING Volume 12 Page 246199

 

[DaveHam9]

Then age is out for Emma in census.

Still can't find them in 1841.

Also does not point to 1837.

Deaths Jun Qtr 1877
VINCENT Charles Edgar 38 - Norwich 4b 92

 

[solidrock2]

!871 census. West Wymer, Norfolk.
Charlotte, 62 is a widow living with Walter D Vincent, 27 and Emma Vincent, 24

 

[solidrock2]

Charlotte ColvinBirth Date: 30 Sep 1805Birth Place: West Ham, Essex, EnglandEvent Type: BirthFather: Richard ColvinMother: Sarah Hays

Charlotte VincentEstimated Birth Year: abt 1808Registration Year: 1881Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-DecAge at Death: 73Registration District: Norwich

 

[DaveHam9]

Marriage 12 Sep 1837 and this birth registered in the December quarter is a bit of a puzzle.

VINCENT, CHARLES EDGAR VINCENT - mother's maiden name not recorded
GRO Reference: 1837 D Quarter in WEST HAM UNION Volume 12 Page 199

The usual situation with no mmn is that the mother was unmarried. Also, no indication the record was amended at a later date.

Age in census and age at death don't point to 1837 but there seems to be no other birth reg that could fit for Charles E.

 

[solidrock2]

Maybe...
London workhouse admission.
Name: Edgar VincentAdmission Age: 39Record Type: Admission Birth Date: 1801Admission Date: 18 Jan 1840Admission Place: Tower Hamlets, Stepney, London, England

 

[CFV]

Phew!
Thank you Dave and SolidRock for this research help.
Since my first post I have done a few chores and just finished a BBQ dinner. I am very appreciative of this assistance.

For the past few days I have been wading through FS, Ancestry, FreeBMD and GRO trying to make sense of the timeline. I don't have a paid subscription to Findmypast so at the moment plan to order birth and marriage certificates for Vincent, Charles Edgar m Richardson, Agnes and for one of their sons who I am interested in - Charles Alfred. I have ordered and received the birth certificate for my great grand father Vincent, Frederick Edgar.

Overall I think that this is the right group of families as their are family names recurring down to today - ie Frederick, Edgar, Charles, Alfred, Agnes, Emma.

I will respond above to the respective posts to keep the thread straightforward.

Regards
Clifton Vincent
Sydney

 

[CFV]

VINCENT, CHARLES EDGAR VINCENT - mother's maiden name not recorded
GRO Reference: 1837 D Quarter in WEST HAM UNION Volume 12 Page 199

Free to search the index but have to register

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

Place of birth on census records may or may not tally exactly with actual place of birth. Also ages may not be exact either for various reasons.

Dave

I suspect this is the right Vincent as I too cannot find other references.
However, time in the work house, and my assumption on education levels may have dimmed the memory (said lightly).

Census age for Vincent, Charles Edgar
1851 - 11yrs old = 1840 (as son in Tendring House)
1861 - 23yrs old = 1838 (as head)
1871 - 32yrs old = 1839 (as head)

So the ages are mixed and the arithmentic is affected by the month of birth and month of the census (which I don't know) so it could be 1837 if the event dates all align.

 

[CFV]

There is this one in RD Norwich.

VINCENT, CHARLES EDWARD - mmn MOORE
GRO Reference: 1839 S Quarter in NORWICH Volume 13 Page 241


The GRO index has a few errors so 'Edward' may or may not be correct.

I suspect this is not the right Vincent. All the children baptism, census, electoral records etc centre around St Stephens and Rampant Horse St and Red Lion St around which I understand their was a hotel. Charles Alfrted and Frederick Edgar were hotelkeepers/barmen in South Africa. Family Anecdote says Charles swindles Frederick out of a share of a hotel in Queenstown, Eastern Cape.