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Looking for John Jefferies

DaveHam9

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#21
Most curious. Nothing in the condition column but the W" is similar to one in the condition column further up the page. Also further up the page is a relation to head clearly written as 'Mother' so would expect that to be used elsewhere on page where needed.

Ok, one thing though, you will have to remove the whole census image as it breaks the copyright rule annoying though it is. It is permissible to post pieces such as say bottom half of two columns.

Dave
 
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#22
Most curious. Nothing in the condition column but the W" is similar to one in the condition column further up the page. Also further up the page is a relation to head clearly written as 'Mother' so would expect that to be used elsewhere on page where needed.

Ok, one thing though, you will have to remove the whole census image as it breaks the copyright rule annoying though it is. It is permissible to post pieces such as say bottom half of two columns.

Dave
My apologies, I've removed the whole census image. The entry is quite weird but itll be very exciting to learn what his mother was called as this is a big step in me helping find his baptism and possibly an early census.
 

DaveHam9

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#23
I'm not sure because it seems more than just a usual 'W' for Widow. Also not in the same column at the other W" up the page.

Maybe trace the unrelated person and see if that person was a widow. Check other pages for the same W" in the Relation to Head and Condition columns. Check if there are any plain 'W' for Widow and if there are then W" has another meaning. ??

I only have access to images when I visit my local library.

Dave
 

Ladybird1300

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#24
Most curious. Nothing in the condition column but the W" is similar to one in the condition column further up the page. Also further up the page is a relation to head clearly written as 'Mother' so would expect that to be used elsewhere on page where needed.

Ok, one thing though, you will have to remove the whole census image as it breaks the copyright rule annoying though it is. It is permissible to post pieces such as say bottom half of two columns.

Dave
Whose copyright does it break Dave?? The originals are kept at the National Archives, no comercial company owns them.

Amanda
 

DaveHam9

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#25
Amanda, I think Steve or Admin will have to put me in my place but from my understanding you can't post complete images.

There are strict rules re posting of transcriptions.

Family History UK policy on the posting of census transcriptions:

British Census images and data are Crown Copyright.

The National Archives has relinquished Crown Copyright on documents within its control provided certain conditions are met. Basically you must ensure that the information is accurate, in context and you are required to include
(a) an acknowledgement that the record is in the care of TNA
(b) the full reference of the document.

Where you have posted information that is Crown Copyright, you MUST add the following statement:
"This information Crown Copyright and is from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk"

For complete guidance, please view the Copyright statement from The National Archives at: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/legal/copyright.htm

You MUST also ensure you remove any details that identify the transcription as being from a particular subscription site, and you MUST ensure that by posting transcriptions that you personally do not break any licence agreements or any terms of use set by other organisation's or subscription sites.

Please report all Copyright Infringements to:
Forum Moderator or Admin or directly to via our contact form.

The images are not taken from TNA but from pay sites.

Dave
 

p.risboy

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#26
The images are Crown Copyright, the transcripts of images are Copyright of the web site they re taken from.

Copying and pasting the subscribed web site transcripts is still a breach of Copyright.

If you read and transcribe the page, and post them you still need to acknowledge Crown Copyright.

Ancestry acknowldge the TNA........

Original data: Census Returns of England and Wales, Kew, Surrey, England: The National Archives of the UK (TNA).

That's my understanding, as said by DaveHam.!


Steve.:)
 

DaveHam9

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#27
Thanks Steve but I'm still not clear as all that info Admin provided relates to transcriptions.

Why have I been posting fragments of the full census image then for 10 years? :)

Dave
 

p.risboy

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#28
Thanks Steve but I'm still not clear as all that info Admin provided relates to transcriptions.

Dave
Clear as mud mostly, as it's a minefield if you're not a lawyer.:biggrin:

I think the subscribed Web site transcriptions are owned, but once you have transcribed the original page yourself, and post, it becomes murky. Part images , I've no idea.
 

p.risboy

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#29
Clear as mud mostly, as it's a minefield if you're not a lawyer.:biggrin:

I think the subscribed Web site transcriptions are owned, but once you have transcribed the original page yourself, and post, it becomes murky. Part images , I've no idea.

My personal opinion, is that the TNA own originals, and as the TNA is a Public institution, paid for by the British Tax payer, I own them as a Bristish subject, and they take care of them for me, and others like me.;):)
 

Ladybird1300

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#30
My personal opinion, is that the TNA own originals, and as the TNA is a Public institution, paid for by the British Tax payer, I own them as a Bristish subject, and they take care of them for me, and others like me.;):)
You know what Steve I agree with that, after all National Archives are for the Nation as far as I'm concerned :eek::p

Amanda
 

DaveHam9

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#31
I only have access via the local library to images on A...

Could someone please check using any page of say 1861 census that the images on two pay sites are identical ??

If they are the same in all aspects then it seems I'm wrong and images are ok provided they show the reference and acknowledgement that the record is in the care of TNA.

Dave
 

Llewred

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#32
Dave, the answer to your question is Yes both FMP and other main site used 1861 Census Pages are identical.


Re John Jefferies

What about this as a possible Baptism from FMP

Mother was Anne a single woman.

First name(s) John
Last name Jefferies
Birth year 1823
Birth date 22 Jul 1823
Baptism date 15 Apr 1838
Father's first name(s)-
Mother's first name(s) Anne

Parish St George, Hanover Square
County Middlesex
Country England
Page 223


Archive City of Westminster Archives Centre
Record set Westminster Baptisms

Ties with POB in 1861 Census Entry
 
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#33
Dave, the answer to your question is Yes both FMP and other main site used 1861 Census Pages are identical.


Re John Jefferies

What about this as a possible Baptism from FMP

Mother was Anne a single woman.

First name(s) John
Last name Jefferies
Birth year 1823
Birth date 22 Jul 1823
Baptism date 15 Apr 1838
Father's first name(s)-
Mother's first name(s) Anne

Parish St George, Hanover Square
County Middlesex
Country England
Page 223


Archive City of Westminster Archives Centre
Record set Westminster Baptisms

Ties with POB in 1861 Census Entry
Thanks Llewred for your reply. At this point I'm looking into all possibilities as there is no direct link. If we had a 1841 and/or 1851 census it possibly could help as he was a young boy then. By 1861 he had met and is living with Louisa. His wife. I just find it strange that there is no 1841/1851 census for him. I do understand the record night of been destroyed or not digitised yet?

The baptism does look very promising and a few days ago I actually emailed the St George, Hanover Square church for any John Jefferies baptised between 1819-1826.

Going back to the 1841/1851 censues, I did find find both for a John Jefferies who was apparently a Tailor. Ill link them here
1841 census: https://i.imgur.com/K3Jw9wv.jpg
1851 census: https://i.imgur.com/f2KtKk8.jpg
 

Ladybird1300

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#34
Thanks Llewred for your reply. At this point I'm looking into all possibilities as there is no direct link. If we had a 1841 and/or 1851 census it possibly could help as he was a young boy then. By 1861 he had met and is living with Louisa. His wife. I just find it strange that there is no 1841/1851 census for him. I do understand the record night of been destroyed or not digitised yet?

The baptism does look very promising and a few days ago I actually emailed the St George, Hanover Square church for any John Jefferies baptised between 1819-1826.

Going back to the 1841/1851 censues, I did find find both for a John Jefferies who was apparently a Tailor. Ill link them here
1841 census: https://i.imgur.com/K3Jw9wv.jpg
1851 census: https://i.imgur.com/f2KtKk8.jpg

I'm not surprised, I've yet to find my g g grandmother in the 1841 and 1851 census. She first turns up at her wedding in 1854. She is probably there somewhere, but I have no idea where, it's what happens when they are born before registration.

Amanda
 

Llewred

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#35
I will take a look at the baptisms for this church again later when in from work and post any I find for you.

You have asked the church for baptisms between 1819-1826, as can be seen from the one I posted born 1823 baptised 1838, so you/they might miss some.
 
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#36
I will take a look at the baptisms for this church again later when in from work and post any I find for you.

You have asked the church for baptisms between 1819-1826, as can be seen from the one I posted born 1823 baptised 1838, so you/they might miss some.
I probably should of widened the dates a little however I went on the birth years stated on the census and the age of death on the death certificate. Even then, he might not of been baptized at the church or even in the UK. His father was a butler so maybe he was born in a different country and brought with his father to the UK to work?

I had a brick wall a few months ago, I finally cracked through it and I'm hoping I can do the same here. Somewhere out there a 1841/1851 census lies and possibly a baptism!

Thank you for having a look later :)
 
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#37
I'm not surprised, I've yet to find my g g grandmother in the 1841 and 1851 census. She first turns up at her wedding in 1854. She is probably there somewhere, but I have no idea where, it's what happens when they are born before registration.

Amanda
Very frustrating isn't it. I'm so keen on finding the right parents though. I am debating whether or not to pay for full access on ancestry to have a look in different countries? What do you think?
 
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#39
I can do that for you, I have a worldwide subscription. I'll take a look


Amanda
If you could do that, that would be great. I do feel like he was born in middlesex, london but something had happened to his parents, now as mentioned according to his marriage cert, his father was a Butler, whether he died many years ago or this is a total lie, we won't know however it was something for me to work with.

I've been told by many that Butlers could of moved around the country and even left the country sometimes. It makes it even more difficult as i cannot find a John Jefferies ( his father ) living anywhere as a a Butler.
 
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Llewred

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#40
Hello

Have searched St George Hanover Square Westminster Baptisms and only two John Jefferies (Inc variations) as far as I can tell between 1815-1840. There were quite a few Jefferies or variations of baptised at this church.


One John is as posted earlier

other

Bap 16 Feb 1840 John, James & Mary Jefferies, Willow Walk, Born 7 Feb 1839, Occ Labourer.

I also looked for baptisms with father named John & these were only two I could find

Bap 18 Jan 1824 Mary Ann, John Jones & Mary William Jefferys, Strand, Born 17 Dec 1823, Seaman

Bap 20 May 1838 Emma, John & Charlotte Jefferies Ebury Sq Born 30 Apr 1838 Labourer

Regards
Mark
 
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