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Philip SAINTY & Harriet WESTERN

DaveHam9

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#1
Marriages Mar Qtr 1847
Sainty Philip Wisbech 14 191
WESTERN Harriet Underwood Wisbech 14 191


Looking for the marriage date and anything else from the marriage.

Thanks,

Dave
 

Ladybird1300

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#2
Hi Dave,

The Cambridge records are on FMP, but other than the marriage you have put here, there is no other information :(

Amanda
 

DaveHam9

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#3
Thanks Amanda.

As well as no longer having the images of Cornwall parishes FS seems now to have very few marriages. They seem to be removing records that used to be free.

Dave
 
#5
Dave - this is long and involved (but could have been longer). I have 'sources' for my data, but omitted them in the interests of clarity. If anything is of interest, I will gladly expand.

What follows is of people I believe are relations of Philip SAINTY who went to AU in 1849

I found the same marriage in Wisbech. I have not obtained the certificate.

I found a birth registration of a Philip SAINTY in Wisbech in 1850. In 1851 this child was with parents John and Elizabeth SAINTY in Canal Street, Wisbech. There were other children born 1839-1847. Most born in Wisbech, but one in Downham. John SAINTY was born in Watlington in 1818 and was a coal merchant.

Philip was Chr 21st May 1854 in Wisbech, which is a while after he was born. I note that the SAINTYs who came to AU were Wesleyan.

I believe there must be some connection between the Philip who went to Australia and the John and Elizabeth SAINTY who were in Wisbech in 1851 - surely too much of a coincidence that John and Elizabeth name a son Philip shortly after Philip gets married in the same place, and travels to AU.

John and Elizabeth SAINTY were in Parsonage Lane Downham Market in 1841. This is the same street as other members of the SAINTY and YULL families were in this year and later. John was a chimney sweep, an occupation that other members of the families plied.

J and E were still in Wisbech in 1854 as a child is buried there at that date. I was unable to find them in 1861, and it is possible John SAINTY is the man who sailed to AU on the Yarra Yarra in October 1856.

I believe Philip married in AU in 1850 - but I don't know what happened to first wife Harriet WESTON. Bride was Isabella FITCHER. I have not researched this further.

I have found that Henry SAINTY, Philip's father, married again in Downham Market after Mary Ann nee YULL died - 1837. Bride was Susan(na) RUST. There are 2 daughters who are named SAINTY in later records, but the births of these girls was before the marriage 1833 and 1836. Susan was living in Parsonage Lane Downham Market.

Eliza Rust SAINTY married either Thomas William CHILD or Samuel James GOWERS in 1861 in West Ham. I have not researched this further.

Fanny Rust SAINTY married Henry FRISBY in 1869 Downham. I have not researched this further.

The mother of these 2 girls was born Susan(na) RUST c 1801. Her unmarried brother Steven RUST was with her in many census.

After Henry died she married John DICKERSON (1845) in Downham. She was living in Parsonage Lane in 1851 and 1861. I have yet to find her in later records.

SHIRLEY ELRICK
 

DaveHam9

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#7
Hi Shirley and welcome to the Forum.


Many thanks for all that info. I will go through what I have in my tree and then do some more searching to try and confirm a few things.

Dave
 

DaveHam9

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#8
Lincolnshire Chronicle - 10 March 1847
At Wisbech, on the 16th inst., Mr. Philip Sainty, to Miss Harriet Underwood Western, both of Wisbech.


SAINTY
Phillip 24 Labourer Downham Norfolk England Henry & Mary Sainty both dead Wesleyan Both None Good None
Harriett 22 Tailoress Walsopp Norfolk England Henry & Jane Weston both dead Wesleyan Both

Burial V1850236 110/1850 SAINTY HARRIET U AGE 23

Wesleyan Burials in the Sydney Circuit in the County of Cumberland in the year 1850
No. 54 Harriet Underwood Sainty Age: 23 years Abode: Sydney When Buried: 8th March Ship's Name: - Quality or Profession: - By whom the Ceremony was performed: Fredc. Lewis

Philip Sainty of Sydney
Isabella Fletcher of Sydney
York st (Wesleyan) Chapel by Banns
22 Aug 1850 By me Benj. Hurst
Witnesses: William Fletcher of Sydney, E. Thompson of Sydney


No parents listed here so we have the baptism and the shipping record.

Death 5855/1866 SAINTY PHILIP AGE 41 YEARS DIED PARRAMATTA PARRAMATTA

The Sydney Morning Herald - Monday 19 March 1866 p.1
DEATHS
On the 18th instant, at his late residence, Church-street, Parramatta, PHILIP SAINTY, aged 41 years.

Accidentally killed by a blow to the head.

The Sydney Morning Herald - Monday 19 March 1866 p.8
FUNERAL.-The Friends of the late Mr. PHILIP SAINTY are respectfully informed that his Funeral will take place on TUESDAY, the 20th instant, to move from his late residence, at half-past 10 o'clock a.m.
JORDAN SPARKS, Undertaker, Marsden-street, Parramatta.

No mention of where Philip was buried. Perhaps Old Wesleyan Rookwood.
 
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DaveHam9

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#9
1841
HO107 Piece 753 Book/Folio 23/4 Page 13
Civil Parish: Burnham Sutton Cum Burnham Ulph
Hundred: Brothercross
County: Norfolk
Registration District: Docking
Sub-RD: Burnham
Address:
Robert Sainty 45 Chimney Sweep Y
Henry Sainty 20 Plumber/Glazier Y
John Sainty 20 Tinman/Glazier Y
Thomas Sainty 15 Tailor Y
Philip Sainty 15 Chimney Sweep Y
William Johnson 20 Y
Mary Ann Johnson 20 Y
Robert Watler 15 Y


Henry Chapman Sainty
Gender Male
Christening Date 26 Nov 1815
Christening Place Burnham-Sutton-CumBurnham-Ulph, Norfolk, England
Father's Name Robert Sainty
Mother's Name Sophia Sainty

John Sainty
Gender Male
Christening Date 25 Mar 1818
Christening Place Burnham-Sutton-CumBurnham-Ulph, Norfolk, England
Father's Name Robert Sainty
Mother's Name Sophia Sainty

Thomas Sainty
Gender Male
Christening Date 08 Jan 1823
Christening Place Burnham-Sutton-CumBurnham-Ulph, Norfolk, England
Father's Name Robert Sainty
Mother's Name Sophia Sainty

Sophia Sainty
Event Type Burial
Event Date 02 Nov 1829
Event Place Burnham Ulph and Sutton, Norfolk, England
Gender Female
Age 36
Birth Year (Estimated) 1793
Spouse's Name Robert Sainty


Can't be sure of the baptism for Robert or his death.

This is probably the marriage for the above John:

Mary CHILDS
John SAINTY Marriage 03 Jan 1845 Norfolk Burnham Ulph (All Saints) [Parish Register]


I can't find the connection between Philip and the others.
 

DaveHam9

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#10
I can't find John Sainty in shipping records.

The 'Yarra Yarra' of 1850s seems to be only a coastal freighter on east coast of Australia.

A death for spouse Elizabeth ?

A death for John if he did end up in Australia?


I can't find a connection between John, Henry and Robert. Baptisms for the three?

Deaths Sep 1838
Sainty Henry Downham 13 37

County Norfolk
Place Downham Market
Church St Edmund
RegisterNumber 1231
BurialDate 17 Jul 1838
Forename Henry
Relationship
Rel1MaleForename
Rel1FemaleForename
Rel1Surname
Surname SAINTY
Age 45
Abode Downham
Notes
FileNumber 12493
 
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DaveHam9

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#11
Will have to check these.

Death 403/1864 SAINTY ELIZABETH - WILLIAM - ELIZABETH - SYDNEY

SAINTY Elizabeth Funeral notice 30MAR1864 Funeral late of Surry Hills Sydney Morning Herald 29MAR1864

Married to a John - 300 Crown street, Surry Hills.

Marriage 886/1864 SAINTY JOHN - BRYANT AMELIA - SYDNEY * 27 Oct

Death 4945/1882 SAINTY JOHN AGE 64 YEARS DIED LANE COVE ST LEONARDS * 14 Aug

Not in Ryerson
 
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DaveHam9

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The Sydney Morning Herald - Friday 22 January 1864 p.6
Immigrants per 'Ocean Empress'
Name of Immigrant - Name of Depositor
...
Sainty, John - Elisabeth Sainty


The Sydney Morning Herald - Saturday 5 January 1901 p.1
Silver Weddings.
SAINTY - GREGORY.- January 5, 1876, at St. John's
Church, Darlinghurst, by the Rev. Thomas Hayden,
James Sier, second youngest son of John and Elizabeth
Sainty, of Ipswich, England, to Louisa, youngest
daughter of Hezekiah and Susannah Philp Gregory, of
London.

I don't know were I'm heading so I hope I get there soon.

Births Sep Qtr 1852
Sainty James Lyer Wisbeach 3b 558
Sainty James Syer Wisbech 3b 550

James Soyer Sainty
Gender Male
Christening Date 21 May 1854
Christening Place Wisbeach-St Peter, Wisbeach, Cambridge
Father's Name John Sainty
Mother's Name Elizabeth


I can't find any marriage for a John to Elizabeth/Elisabeth in England 1837 - 1854 apart from this one:

John Sainty & Elizabeth Offeey
25 May 1837 St. Peter Wesbech, Cambridge
Batch: M138505
 
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#13
Dave, I am going to reply in pieces.

You said.

I can't find John Sainty in shipping records.

The 'Yarra Yarra' of 1850s seems to be only a coastal freighter on east coast of Australia.

A death for spouse Elizabeth ?

A death for John if he did end up in Australia?

I reply - I believe I found John SAINTY in NSW. He was an orchardist in Turramurra, According to a newspaper cutting on ancestry he was from Wisbech, and was not only an orchardist, he was also a master chimney sweep and a grocer. He died in NSW in 1882, so a death rego should be available free on line. I think the wills are also available.

Trove is a good site for AU newspapers, and is also free.

According to a tree on ancestry John was the son of Henry SAINTY and Mary Ann YULL, which makes him Philip's brother, but I have not done this research myself. I think the NSW death is the way to go, as this should have John's parents listed.

I have another YULL/SAINTY marriage in my YULL research, but I have not linked the 2 YULL people, so I will not cloud the issue here. If you want to know more pls let me know. My focus is on the YULL family.
 

DaveHam9

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#14
Death 4945/1882 SAINTY JOHN AGE 64 YEARS DIED LANE COVE ST LEONARDS

I have not found ref to him being an orchardist but did find in Trove mention of him as a farrier and oyster farmer on Lane Cove River.

??
County Norfolk
Place Watlington
Church name St Peter and St Paul
Register type
Register entry number 97
Baptism date 14 Mar 1819
Person forename John
Person *** ?
Father forename John
Father surname SAINTY
Father occupation Chimney Sweep
Mother forename Mary

Can't find a baptism for a John with parents Henry & Mary.

Can't find a baptism for Elizabeth Offley.

Dave
 
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#15
Dave, I have made a previous post that does not yet shw up (as I am new member being moderated). After reading your post re Philip's death, I found this on trove - Cumberland Free Press Oct 1896

Mrs. Isabella Sainty — one of the best known residents of Parramatta — died at her house, Boundary and Inkerman streets, on 18th, from bronchial pneumonia. Mrs.Sainty, at first in conjunction with her husband, and after his death by herself — was associated with the chief business life of the town of a preceding generation. For many years the ironmongery and hardware establishment conducted by them, in Church-street, was amongst the leading houses of the town. Mr. Sainty's death by accident in the centre of the town, over a score of years ago is still fresh in the memories of many old residents. His widow (the lady just deceased) carried on the business till a few years ago, when it was handed over to her sons, and ultimately closed. Mrs. Sainty was a native of Argyleshire, Scotland, and arrived in this colony with her parents (Mr. and Mrs. Fletcher) 67 years ago as an infant. She was married to Mr. P. Sainty in the ' fifties,' and shortly afterwards they settled in Parramatta where they entered on business as above men- tioned. Several children were the result of the marriage, of whom five survive, viz., two daughters — Mrs. Chapman (of Woollongong), Mrs. Booth (of Parramatta), and three sons Messrs. Henry R., Archibald Fletcher, and Charles W. Sainty. The deceased lady was throughout her long life an ardent member of of the Wesleyan Church, and was formerly one of its most prominent adherents and supporters in Parramatta, and later in Granville. In her later years, however, she led a very retired life; and her health became extremely feeble. Her last illness extended over two weeks only. Her remains were interred in the old Wesleyan cemetery on Tuesday afternoon last in the presence of a large gathering of members of the Wesleyan Church and other townsmen. The Rev. P. J. Stephen officiated at the grave. Amongst those present were Mr. G. T. Hunt, J.P., Messrs. W. R. Murray, Mr. H. Taylor, J.P., Mr. W. Hart and others.
 

horse

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#17
John Sainty
Birth Year: abt 1819
Age: 45
Arrival Date: 18 Jan 1864
Vessel Name: Ocean Empress
Origin Location: Wadlington, Norfolk, England

Image says, parents = Henry & Mary. Occ = Labourer. Native place = Wadlington, Norfolk. Wife = Elizabeth Sainty [Relation in Colony], so already there.

Unless they arrived earlier and John returned to England for a while :rolleyes:

Geoff
 

horse

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#18
Unless they arrived earlier and John returned to England for a while :rolleyes:
If it's the same John Sainty, looks possible..

Sands:
John Sainty
Year: 1861
Street Number: 300
Street Name: Crown Street
City: Sydney
Page: 37

John Sainty
Year: 1865
Street Number: 300 - 302
City: Sydney
Page: 46
[Image has same address]

Geoff

EDIT: Still there in 63/64.
 

DaveHam9

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#19
Thanks Geoff.

They arrived probably together and probably unassisted.

The Sydney Morning Herald - Friday 22 January 1864 p.6
Immigrants per 'Ocean Empress'
Name of Immigrant - Name of Depositor
...
Sainty, John - Elisabeth Sainty

Elizabeth was in the colony when John arrived in 1864. Funeral notice 300 Crown st.

We now have enough to say John is probably Philip's brother although no baptism found.

Dave
 
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DaveHam9

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#20
1841
HO107 Piece 754 Book/Folio 9/9 Page 11
Civil Parish: Downham Market
County: Norfolk
Registration District: Downham
Address: Parsonage Lane
John Sainty M 24 Y
Elizth Sainty F 24 Y
Henry Sainty M 3 Y
George Sainty M 6 months Y
William Kent M 28 Y
James Stacy M 18 Y
John Kettle M 18 Y
Maria Edwards F 11 Y
George Parker M 44 Y


John & Elizabeth & family in 1851?

Thanks,

Dave
 
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