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Please sign the e-petition

gortonboy

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#1
Hi,,,there is an e-petition on the Lancashire BMD site regarding the cost of ordering certificates,,if you agree with the petition,can you please sign it,,,cheers http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/


Research Copies for Birth, Marriage & Death Certificates for Genealogical Research Purposes

Responsible department: Home Office


Under current legislation, the GRO can only "release this information by means of the issue of a paper certified copy Cert of the relevant entry, and payment of the relevant statutory fee for a certified copy." We request that this House enacts legislation to allow the General Register Office of England and Wales the ability to issue "uncertified" research copies of birth, marriage and death certs - with a notice on the copies that they are uncertified, and have no legal authority - and that these may be obtained at a much lower cost than the current £9.25 per cert (eg £2) when ordered on-line and the GRO Index Ref is Provided, and that these may be issued in a electronic (email) format or a plain paper in the same way as The Rep of Ireland; this would enable family historians to buy many certs for their research at a lower cost" In the Republic of Ireland you can ask for an uncertified copy from Roscommon (their version of GRO) for €4.
 

duckweed

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#2
Even if they limited E certificates to those over 100 years old. If I download documents from the National Archives it is considerably cheaper than getting a death certificate etc.
 

Jkd

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#6
I have signed the petition I believe that BMD's should be available to download for a nominal fee or free the need to order and pay fees is ridiculous it should all be uploaded electronically.
 

p.risboy

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#7
I have signed the petition I believe that BMD's should be available to download for a nominal fee or free the need to order and pay fees is ridiculous it should all be uploaded electronically.
The idea of being it being free, would be a dream, but in reality there are overheads to cover. Wages for staff, premises etc.
But I think the idea of getting these records via email etc. is brilliant, and would save a whole host of resources and time.

Just hope it comes to fruition.:)
 

Guy

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#8
I have signed the petition I believe that BMD's should be available to download for a nominal fee or free the need to order and pay fees is ridiculous it should all be uploaded electronically.
Nothing is free someone has to pay the costs to scan the documents, index them, server fees, bandwidth fees etc. etc.
What you mean is you expect other people to pay extra tax to allow you to enjoy your hobby.

Why should they?

I for instance enjoy driving, would you pay extra tax to allow me to fill my car with petrol free of charge?
No of course not!

As I have mentioned on other forums this petition is counter-productive ans will interfer with the work other family historians have put in trying to make historic registers available online at the cost of production (around £9.00p.).

Do not forget the ONS makes no profit on producing certificate (they cannot by law) the cost one pays is the cost involved in producing the certificate, little if anything would be saved by not printing the certificate and it may even cost more to produce a digital copy.
Cheers
Guy
 

p.risboy

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#9
No postage, no transport costs(Mail), no paper/envelopes.....and it would be faster hopefully. The image is electronically scanned/transferred/printed onto a research cert, so transferred to an email should be just a easy.

If it's printed off at the recipients end, I'm sure the quality of the paper isn't as good as the certs we receive in the post.

There's always going to be pro's & cons, but Free.....never in a million years.:)

Steve.:)
 

Jkd

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#10
I am sure the information is logged electronically at the time of registration and I believe a lot of old BMD's have been logged electronically already every new event is logged automatically and there does need to be staff and costs for that of course but if a nominal fee was payable for those who are happy to print off a copy rather than have one sent they can print it off on whatever quality paper the recipient chooses. After a certain period of time the certs will have paid for themselves many times over.

I know people voluntarily upload information from various documents including census details, so people may well volunteer if this is required.

As it stands at the moment it is quite costly.
 

Guy

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#11
I am sure the information is logged electronically at the time of registration and I believe a lot of old BMD's have been logged electronically already every new event is logged automatically and there does need to be staff and costs for that of course but if a nominal fee was payable for those who are happy to print off a copy rather than have one sent they can print it off on whatever quality paper the recipient chooses. After a certain period of time the certs will have paid for themselves many times over.

I know people voluntarily upload information from various documents including census details, so people may well volunteer if this is required.

As it stands at the moment it is quite costly.
The cost of certificates has never been cheaper actually. when I started many years ago the cost (as a percentage of income was far higher almost 5% of the average weekly wage).

A huge proportion of entries still have to be scanned and indexed, the servers would require upgrading to handle networked applications, there would also be a large increase in download bandwidth.

As for volunteers who would pay for the organisation of the volunteers the costs involved in supplying them with the entries to transcribe etc. etc.
Such projects all involve costs that someone has to pay, I know as I have contributed to such projects in the past, it is not cheap.
Cheers
Guy
 

leefer

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#12
Nothing is free someone has to pay the costs to scan the documents, index them, server fees, bandwidth fees etc. etc.
What you mean is you expect other people to pay extra tax to allow you to enjoy your hobby.

Why should they?

I for instance enjoy driving, would you pay extra tax to allow me to fill my car with petrol free of charge?
No of course not!

As I have mentioned on other forums this petition is counter-productive ans will interfer with the work other family historians have put in trying to make historic registers available online at the cost of production (around £9.00p.).

Do not forget the ONS makes no profit on producing certificate (they cannot by law) the cost one pays is the cost involved in producing the certificate, little if anything would be saved by not printing the certificate and it may even cost more to produce a digital copy.
Cheers
Guy
All certs are paid for when they are registered surely.....it is a legal right that we register births deaths and marriages....a right we all have to pay for when it is registered....i sadly have just had the sad buisness of registering a death....it cost money,not to much granted but all the same that record is there and should be available to look at for no money in a hundred years time by people who are interested in that record....it would make more sense to add a little cost for registering and cut out all the mumbo jumbo claptrap we go through to see a record....especially a record added in the last hundred years or so.

For sure old records should have a small fee to pay....a quid at most i reckon.
In todays age i reckon it shouldn't be to costly as a nation to get our census and BMD house in order and as mentioned a quick click of a button for a nominal fee is the most obvious answer.
 

p.risboy

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#13
Blimey Lee, I never have.:eek:

But it has been a few years since I've had to do it, so things may have changed,

Anyway.....research certs via email is the way to go in my eyes. And I still wouldn't mind paying a few quid, but not the present rate.

Steve.:)
 

Guy

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#16
All certs are paid for when they are registered surely
Certificates are not registered, the event (birth, marriage or death) is registered, certificates are produced on demand.

.....it is a legal right that we register births deaths and marriages....a right we all have to pay for when it is registered....i sadly have just had the sad buisness of registering a death....it cost money,not to much granted but all the same that record is there and should be available to look at for no money in a hundred years time by people who are interested in that record
The register may be viewed free of charge whilst it is kept by the registrar. When it is full and forwarded to the Superintendant Registrar it is no longer available to view and certificates must be purchased for each event.
The costs of storage have to be met, that cost is part of the fee charged for the new certificate.
People think the costs are simply the costs of printing a certificate but there is more involved than that.


....it would make more sense to add a little cost for registering and cut out all the mumbo jumbo claptrap we go through to see a record....especially a record added in the last hundred years or so.

For sure old records should have a small fee to pay....a quid at most i reckon.
In todays age i reckon it shouldn't be to costly as a nation to get our census and BMD house in order and as mentioned a quick click of a button for a nominal fee is the most obvious answer.
Where do you get the sum of a quid to view the record, I assume it is just a nominal sum off the top of your head and not a costed sum taking into account the expenses involved.
If you have taken costs into account what are they? ;)
Cheers
Guy
 

leefer

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#17
Guy...i talked to the registrar yesterday...i had to get a copy of my dads death certificate:(

She agreed with a lot of what you have said.....but she is as frustrated as many that the way still seems to be a little old fashioned and dated.
Of course while i think most of us agree that a cert should be paid for most(including the lady registrar in Swindon:))believe the cost to be to much on the whole.

I am glad you are standing your corner though as the art of proper debate would be lost if we all agreed on the same points of talking.

In fact i think the word FORUM was an old roman word for just that such thing.
 

Guy

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#18
Leefer, I am frustrated by the present system as are many other family historians.
However such poorly thought out petitions do not help to change the situation but rather prove to the politicians that genealogists want something for nothing.
A number of us including the likes of Nick Barratt have been working on getting the Historic records released online but such petitions frustrate that work.

We have to be realistic in what we ask for and have to show/prove that any such project is self funded rather than one which will cost the taxpayer (government) money.
Cheers
Guy
 

leefer

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#19
So Guy...a serious question here:eek:

What would you consider a fair price to pay....as it is now?...a little higher? substantially higher?

I dont particularly think that it is to expensive....my main gripe is that it should be easier to get hold of and somewhat quicker.
 

Guy

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#20
So Guy...a serious question here:eek:

What would you consider a fair price to pay....as it is now?...a little higher? substantially higher?

I dont particularly think that it is to expensive....my main gripe is that it should be easier to get hold of and somewhat quicker.
The answer to that depends on various circumstances such as whether a third party company digitises the registers (as happened with the 1911 census) or whether the National Archives digitises in house.

If the NA digitises/indexes in house fair price could rise to £15.
If a third party company was employed the price could possibly drop to £7 or £8 depending on the digitising/hosting contract.

If a full licence agreement between commercial companies (digitising/indexing/hosting/royalties) and the National Archives came into being then digital certificates from Historic Registers could over time drop to census prices.

However if this did happen current certificates may increase in price to compensate for the loss of revenue from Historic Certificates.
That would obviously depend on the contract/licence agreement and the revenue raised by online historic certificate sales.

There would have to be a change in law to allow certificates to be sold in this manner but that could be achieved.
Cheers
Guy
 

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