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RUNCIMAN & THORNLEY families

DaveHam9

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#1
Hello crankypants,

William THORNLEY & Betsy BALL had several children. One:

Ethel b. 1887 Petersham d. 1960 Sydney

married 1914 Sydney

Charles RUNCIMAN b. 1872 Ireland d. 1953 Artarmon

The Sydney Morning Herald (NSW : 1842-1954) - Friday 27 November 1953
DEATHS
RUNCIMAN Charles -November 25, 1953 at hospital late of Weedon Road, Artarmon beloved husband of Ethel and loved father of Betty and Peggy. Privately cremated.


Please see what you can find. Thanks.

Regards,

Dave
 

crankypants

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#2
Hi Dave

Sent 1930-1954 e/r's.

1910 N.S.W Sands Directory
RUNCIMAN Charles, Arden st, Coogee

1921-1925 N.S.W Sands Directory
RUNCIMAN Charles, 162 Mount st, Coogee

1927-1932 N.S.W Sands Directory
RUNCIMAN Chas, 12 Weedon rd, Ar’mon
-----------------------------------------

Rookwood Cemetery Transcriptions
Name: THORNLEY, Betsy
Date of death: 03 Aug 1938
Age: 81
Date of birth: -
Inscription: -
Cemetery: Rookwood
Denomination: Old Church of England
Row: 13
Grave: 515,516

Rookwood Cemetery Transcriptions
Name: THORNLEY, William
Date of death: –
Age: –
Date of birth: -
Inscription: Husb of above, interred in Adelaide
Cemetery: Rookwood
Denomination: Old Church of England
Row: 13
Grave: 515,516

South Australian Deaths Registrations 1842 to 1915
Surname: THORNLEY
Given Names: William
Date: 1911-10-07
***: M
Age: 54y
Status: M
Relative: (not recorded)
Relative 2:
Residence: Marrickville [NSW]
Death Place: Adelaide
District Code: Ade
Symbol: H
Book: 360
Page: 226
Cross Reference:

The Advertiser (Adelaide,... Monday 9 October 1911, page 8. News 2322 words.
Mr. William Thornley, senior partner of the firm of W. Thornley & Sons, Sydney, died at Miss Hill's private hospita] early on Saturday .morning. Mr. Thornley had been in Adelaide for some little time in connection with the carrying out of an in. terlocking contract for the Municipal Tramways Trust, and o week ago was un- expectedly seized with a paralytic stroke, from which he never recovered. He ivas an engineer of remarkable ability, and was recognised «s one of the greatest authori- ties on interlocking engineering' work in Australia. He was for many years inter- locking engineer to the New South Wales railways. Later he became general mana- ger of the Lithgow Ironworks, in New ¡south Wales. For some years past he had been in business on his own account, in partnership with his sons. His was a striking personality, and his many friends not only in this State, but also in Vic- toria and New South Wales, will mourn the loss of a true friend. As an illustra tion of _ the deceased's command of men, it ia said that during the years he was general manager at the Lithgow Ironworks there was not a single workmen's strike.

cheers
crankypants
 

DaveHam9

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#3
Hello crankypants,

Thank you very much. This is one of several puzzles. :D

N.S.W Assisted Immigrants 'Earl Dalhousie' arrival date: 7 May 1877
Name: THORNLEY William
Birth Year: abt 1855
Age: 22
Calling: Engine-Driver
Native Place & County: Leigh, Lancashire
Parent’s names, & if alive their residence: Thomas – (24 Lloyd street, Leigh)
Religious Denomination: Wesleyan
Read & Write: Both
Relations in the Colony: None

No sign of spouse Betsy in the shipping records. Their marriage:

Marriages Dec 1876
Thornley William Bolton 8c 383
BALL Betsey Bolton 8c 383

So William came out very soon after their marriage. Their first child born in NSW as far as I can see was John in 1881. That's quite a gap so something does not add up. I have just seen a funeral notice which mentions a Mr & Mrs W G SLOMAN:

# 7491/1906 SLOMAN WILLIAM G THORNLEY MARY A LITHGOW

Death # 1527/1954 SLOMAN MARY ALICE WILLIAM BETTY CHATSWOOD

So it looks as though Mary Alice is the first born. Now, was she born in England and therefore did Betsy and newborn arrive after William? Or was she born in NSW between 1877 and 1881 but her birth not registered?

The Sydney Morning Herald (NSW : 1842-1954) - Saturday 1 September 1906
SOCIAL
... Despite the excessively wet weather there was a large gathering at St Paul's Church of England, Lithgow on Thursday afternoon, when Miss Mary Alice Thornley, eldest surviving daughter of Mr. William Thornley general manager of Eskbank Ironworks, was married to Mr. William George Sloman, second son of Mr. George Sloman of Granville. The church had been decorated by friends of the bride and over the altar hung a large wedding bell. The Rev. R. J. Cameron officiated. Miss Ethel [born 1887] Thornley (sister of the bride) and Miss Grimshaw (of Sydney) were the bridesmaids...

So it seems other daughters were born and died young. That explains the gap.

Please see what you can find. Thanks.

Regards,

Dave
 
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DaveHam9

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#4
Hello crankypants,

William THORNLEY ..the 8th inst., and interred in the Payneham Cemetery.

Regards,

Dave
 

DaveHam9

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#5
Hello crankypants,

It can't be this one although the RD is right:

Births Mar 1879
Thornley Mary Alice Bolton 8c 475

Could be this one:

Births Mar 1877
THORNLEY Mary Bury 8c 611


Not likely to be this one - it's Liverpool:

Births Jun 1878
Thornley Mary Alice W. Derby 8b 412

This one is probably too far away:

Births Dec 1877
Thornley Mary Alice Chorley 8e 502


Regards,

Dave
 
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DaveHam9

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#6
Hello crankypants,

It's not SMITH but THORNLEY in Lancashire is just as bad. Just taking Bolton RD and 1876-1877 at least 14 female births. I noticed these deaths:

Deaths Dec 1876
Thornley Eliza 1 Bolton 8c 215

Deaths Mar 1878
Thornley Esther 0 Bolton 8c 205

We might be out of luck with this puzzle. The next one is just as tough :D

Regards,

Dave
 

crankypants

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#7
Hi Dave

Not much luck finding Betsy THORNLEY & child in shipping records between 1876-1881.:eek: Wonder if any BALL members came out with her.

I knew that death in Adelaide rang a bell. 'DER' redf)

cheers
crankypants
 

DaveHam9

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#8
Hello crankypants,

Thanks for looking, again. ;) Yes we have looked at this before but I have new stuff thanks to NLA. I don't know about any BALL arriving but Betsy did have 10 siblings. :D so it's possible.

Oh, I looked on the shipping image and William is listed with the single males. No sign of Betsy or Mary on the image. No sign of any BALL family on the vessel with William in 1877.


There is a BALL family in 1878 but they are from Shropshire. Ready for next puzzle?

Regards,

Dave
 

DaveHam9

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#9
Hello crankypants,

I'll delay the next puzzle for a few days :)

Betsy THORNLEY died in 1938 in Marrickville so she must have moved.

1930 N.S.W Electoral Roll - Parramatta - Waitara
THORNLEY Betsey, Bolton, Stuart avenue, Normanhurst, home duties
Is she in Lang in 1936 E/R as Betsy?

Please see what you can find. Thanks.

Regards,

Dave
 

DaveHam9

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#10
Hello crankypants,

Thank you very much.

1930 N.S.W Electoral Roll – Parkes - Ashbury
THORNLEY Amy Bertha, 24 Fernhill street, Hurlestone Park
THORNLEY Thomas William, 24 Fernhill street, Hurl. Park, com. director
Amy died in 1931.

Please see what you can find. Thanks.

Regards,

Dave
 

DaveHam9

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#11
Hello crankypants,

Death:

20432/1948 THORNLEY ALICE ANN 88 YRS MARRICKVILLE MARRICKVILLE

Who is Alice Ann, born abt 1860? I can see no marriage in NSW from 1875 for THORNLEY to be Alice's married name. There is no sign of a third child for Thomas & Ann in 1861 or 1871 census. William born 1854 is the youngest and he married Betsy in 1876 so Alice Ann is not their child.

Births Sep 1860
THORNLEY Alice Ann Bolton 8c 280
THORNLEY Alice Ann Bolton 8c 283

Births Mar 1861
THORNLEY Alice Ann Bolton 8c _24

-------
Death:

3695/1946 THORNLEY ALICE JANE THOMAS JANE MARRICKVILLE

Thomas William must have remarried after Amy died in 1931 but there is only one Thomas so who is the mother of Alice Jane? Or is it an error and should be Amy?

15145/1934 THORNLEY THOMAS W CASSAR MARGARET P SYDNEY

--------
I can see no marriage for Betsy the clerk so who are her parents?

This one died young:

Death # 8126/1894 THORNLEY BETSY A WILLIAM BETSY MARRICKVILLE


Regards,

Dave
 
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crankypants

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#12
Hi Dave

Are Alice Jane & Betsy sisters? 1930 e/r at 4 Francis Street, Marrickville.

DEATHS
922/1952 THORNLEY BETSY THOMAS JANE HORNSBY
3695/1946 THORNLEY ALICE JANE THOMAS JANE MARRICKVILLE

The Sydney Morning Herald... Monday 10 March 1952, page 12. Family Notices 10930 words.
THORNLEY Betsy -March 9 1952 at hospital (late of Marrickville) dearly loved aunt of Polly, Tom, Alf, Ethel, Fred (deceased), and Syd aged 82 years. At rest.

The Sydney Morning Herald... Monday 10 March 1952, page 12. Family Notices 10930 words.
THORNLEY -The Relatives and Friends of the late Miss BETSY THORNLEY are Invited to attend her Funeral to leove the Private Chapel or Motor Funerals Limited 8 East Parade Eastwood This Afternoon at 1 30 lor the Church of England Cemetery Woronora A Service will be held prior to depar- ture commencing at 1 15 o clock MOTOR FUNERALS LIMITED

Not sure if them, will post 1871 census shortly, internet keeps dropping out.:eek:

cheers
crankypants
 

DaveHam9

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#13
Hello crankypants,

Thank you very much. Yes, they look like they could be sisters but I can't explain Alice Ann born 1860 or Betsy born 1870 or Alice Jane.

1871 U.K census
Civil Parish: Bedford
Town: Leigh
County: Lancashire
Registration District: Leigh
Address: 8 Derby Street
THORNLEY Thomas, head 1828 age 43 Silk Overlooker Bedford, Lancashire
THORNLEY, Ann, wife 1831 age 30 Bedford, Lancashire [38?]
THORNLEY Mary, daur 1852 age 19 Silk Winder Bedford, Lancashire
THORNLEY William, son 1855 age 16 Silk Overlooker Bedford, Lancashire
WOOLEY Esther A., lodger 1853 age 18 Silk Picker Darshill, Somerset
Same as 1861 census, it shows Mary and William as the only children.

Polly, Tom, Alf, Ethel, Fred (deceased), and Syd

I can explain Tom, Alf, Ethel, Fred but not Polly and not Syd. (possibility Mary Alice was called Polly) but certainly I have no Syd. So not all children are listed in NSW BMD or more were born in England besides Mary Alice and they arrived with Betsy sometime after William.

Regards,

Dave
 
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crankypants

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#14
Hi Dave

Found a Alice J & Betsy with parents Thomas & Jane.

1871 U.K Census
Civil Parish: Great Bolton
Reg District: Bolton
Sub District: Bolton East
County: Lancashire
Address: Apple Street, Great Bolton, Bolton

THORNLEY, Thomas Head M 37 1834 Ashton Under Lyme, Lancashire
THORNLEY, Jane Wife F 35 1836 Bolton, Lancashire
THORNLEY, William Son M 15 1856 Bolton, Lancashire
THORNLEY, John Son M 13 1858 Bolton, Lancashire
THORNLEY, Joseph Son M 11 1860 Bolton, Lancashire
THORNLEY, Elizabeth Daughter F 8 1863 Bolton, Lancashire
THORNLEY, Mary E Daughter F 5 1866 Bolton, Lancashire
THORNLEY, Alice J Daughter F 3 1868 Atherton, Lancashire
THORNLEY, Betsy Daughter F 1 1870 Bolton, Lancashire

What do you think, found them in 1881 & 1891 census.

cheers
crankypants
 

DaveHam9

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#15
Hello crankypants,

Please post those too. I've found Syd in E/R in 1936:

Alice Ann THORNLEY, 21 Arthur Street, Home duties
Joseph Sidney THORNLEY, 21 Arthur Street, Packer
Lillian Dorothy THORNLEY, 21 Arthur Street, Home duties

I'm confused. :rolleyes:


THORNLEY William 22 'Earl Dalhousie' 1877 Sydney Reel 2140, [4/4801] Page 95; Reel 2488, [4/5003]
Shipping records list William’s father as Thomas (no mother’s name, probably died before 1877).

Ok have I got the RIGHT William ??? His death in Adelaide does not list his mother. We have nothing that lists his mother as far as I know. I took it as being this one:

Births Dec 1854
Thornley William Leigh 8c 134

but it could be the William born abt 1856 Bolton in the census you just posted.

Regards,

Dave
 

DaveHam9

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#16
Hello crankypants,

:eek: redf) Something in the family history or whatever said it was Leigh.



N.S.W Assisted Immigrants 'Earl Dalhousie' arrival date: 7 May 1877
Name: THORNLEY William
Birth Year: abt 1855
Age: 22
Calling: Engine-Driver
Native Place & County: Leigh, Lancashire
Parent’s names, & if alive their residence: Thomas – (24 Lloyd street, Leigh)
Religious Denomination: Wesleyan
Read & Write: Both
Relations in the Colony: None


Regards,

Dave
 

DaveHam9

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#17
Hello crankypants,

To be unmarried aunts they have to be sisters of the William who married Betsy BALL. The shipping record says Wiliam's father Thomas was living in Leigh yet the census that fits is Bolton and the Leigh census does not have the needed sisters.

The Joseph born 1860 could be the Joseph Sidney in the E/R.

Where is Alice Ann (living with Joseph in 1936) born abt 1860 in that 1871 census?

20432/1948 THORNLEY ALICE ANN 88 YRS MARRICKVILLE MARRICKVILLE

Regards,

Dave
 
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crankypants

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#18
Hi Dave

1881 U.K census
Civil Parish: Great Bolton
Reg District: Bolton
Sub District: Bolton Eastern
County: Lancashire
Address: 278, Lever St, Great Bolton

THORNLEY, Thomas Head Married M 47 1834 Iron Turner Ayrshire Scotland
THORNLEY, Jane Wife Married F 45 1836 Bolton Lancashire
THORNLEY, John Son Single M 23 1858 Iron Powder Shotman Bolton
Lancashire
THORNLEY, Elizabeth Ann Daughter Single F 18 1863 Cotton Winder Bolton
Lancashire
THORNLEY, Mary E Daughter Single F 16 1865 Cotton Winder Bolton Lancashire
THORNLEY, Alice J Daughter Single F 13 1868 Scholar Atherton Lancashire
THORNLEY, Betsy Daughter Single F 11 1870 Scholar Bolton Lancashire
THORNLEY, Thomas Son Single M 4 1877 Bolton Lancashire

1891 U.K census
Civil Parish: Great Bolton
Reg District: Bolton
Sub District: Great Bolton
County: Lancashire
Address: 1, Greville Street, Great Bolton, Bolton

THORNLEY, Thomas Head Married M 57 1834 Mill Mechanic Ashton-Under-Lyne
Lancashire
THORNLEY, Jane Wife Married F 55 1836 Bolton Lancashire
THORNLEY, Elizabeth A Daughter Single F 28 1863 Cotton Winder Bolton
Lancashire
THORNLEY, Mary E Daughter Single F 25 1866 Cotton Winder Bolton Lancashire
THORNLEY, Alice J Daughter Single F 23 1868 Machinist Bolton Lancashire
THORNLEY, Betsy Daughter Single F 21 1870 Weaver Cotton Bolton Lancashire
THORNLEY, Thomas Son Single M 14 1877 Cop Packer Bolton Lancashire

Alice J & Betsy not in 1901 census.

cheers
crankypants
 

DaveHam9

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#19
Hello crankypants,

The Joseph in the census is not Joseph Sidney in the E/R:

19561/1958 THORNLEY JOSEPH SYDNEY JOSEPH ALICE ANN MARRICKVILLE

That means a lot more arrived in Australia after William (no relations in colony) in 1877 as THORNLEY but I can't find them yet, probably because they were NOT assisted ???

Now I can't find the Joseph & Alice Ann marriage in NSW or England.

Regards,

Dave
 

DaveHam9

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#20
Hello crankypants,

Thank you very much.

The marriage of their son:

1370/1917 THORNLEY JOSEPH S WALTERS LILLIAN D Y MARRICKVILLE

Lillian D = Dorothy Lillian in some records.

====

Marriages Dec 1880
Conway Alice Ann Bolton 8c 328
Thornley Joseph Bolton 8c 328

That means that Joseph & spouse Alice Ann and Betsy and Alice J came out very much later.


Regards,

Dave
 
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