New to this website because I found a link on it via Google to a family member. 'Webwiz' had posted information in Sep 2014 on my great grandfather Simon Winter. I had uncovered the same details as his 8/9/14 post from his daughter Ellen's marriage certificate, but so far little more except possible post office directory and tax listings. I'm wondering why I haven't been able to locate his birth, marriage, death details, etc. If 'Webwiz' can post a response, I can add some information that two late aunts gave me - which deepen the mystery. I also wondered about the Nellie Bryan link, as a possible spouse, but the dates don't gel. Simon's daughter was born in 1887. The Winter/Bryan marriage took place in 1889. But, as Simon's wife Ellen was left to bring up her daughter from an early age (with much help from a Mary Ann Ladbrook - see 1901 Census, St Geo East, Stepney, RG 13/312), perhaps Simon died soon after her birth. But the aunts I spoke to indicated other reasons. Simon has been an incredibly elusive character, about whom I'd like to know more. Can 'Webwiz' or anyone else help? Thanks.
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Simon Winter
- Thread starter Lesley01
- Start date
Thanks to those of you who kindly responded. I'm still trying to work my way around the website, so very much wearing an L plate just now! I'll need to start a thread, but not yet sure how to do it. Will persevere.
Keying in to Google - 'Simon Winter Nellie Bryan' will bring the site contributor Webwiz's posting as the top message.
It's been a while since I checked my family history records, so did so last night... can now confirm that Ellen Winter's mother's maiden name was Crawley and that she was also Ellen. All East London families. So the supposed Bryan link is definitely negative. Much to sort out and uncover, but of all the family members, Simon Winter has proved the most difficult. It could be that his name was incorrectly recorded by enumerators, especially if his father had a strong foreign accent (there's a child by the name of 'Lipman' Winter in one Census, so may prove a point). Thanks again for giving me hope of finding him. Fingers crossed.
Keying in to Google - 'Simon Winter Nellie Bryan' will bring the site contributor Webwiz's posting as the top message.
It's been a while since I checked my family history records, so did so last night... can now confirm that Ellen Winter's mother's maiden name was Crawley and that she was also Ellen. All East London families. So the supposed Bryan link is definitely negative. Much to sort out and uncover, but of all the family members, Simon Winter has proved the most difficult. It could be that his name was incorrectly recorded by enumerators, especially if his father had a strong foreign accent (there's a child by the name of 'Lipman' Winter in one Census, so may prove a point). Thanks again for giving me hope of finding him. Fingers crossed.
I think Simon Winter had a child out of wedlock with Ellen Crawley/Crowley in 1887. He then married Nellie Bryan in 1889
I believe Ellen was married to possibly James Crawley, but more work to do there
1901 RG13-312-152-51 gives the two Ellens named Crawley. but it appears Ellen Jnr reverted to her father's name when she married Daniel Patrick Hunt in 1909
Simon was recorded aged 48 on 1901-RG13-527-155-16
recorded as S 38 on 1891-RG12-479-86-9
both with wife Milly
recorded on 1881-RG11-452-94-18 as Wm 30, with wife Mrs 30 and child Esther 2. (on 1891 Esther is 12)
the link is that Wm/Simon is from Russia and Mrs/Milly is from Germany and Esther London
dave
I believe Ellen was married to possibly James Crawley, but more work to do there
1901 RG13-312-152-51 gives the two Ellens named Crawley. but it appears Ellen Jnr reverted to her father's name when she married Daniel Patrick Hunt in 1909
Simon was recorded aged 48 on 1901-RG13-527-155-16
recorded as S 38 on 1891-RG12-479-86-9
both with wife Milly
recorded on 1881-RG11-452-94-18 as Wm 30, with wife Mrs 30 and child Esther 2. (on 1891 Esther is 12)
the link is that Wm/Simon is from Russia and Mrs/Milly is from Germany and Esther London
dave
Many, many thanks for your interest and your encouraging reponse, Dave. It all starts to make sense now. When my late mother and her two sisters talked (separately) to me about Ellen some years ago about their grandmother, the information was conflicting - and odd. The eldest sister said Simon Winter died, hence Ellen's remarriage. The youngest sister (who, with her family, had lived with her mother - Ellen's daughter - before she died, so may have been privvy to early family details) said that Simon and Ellen's marriage was annulled and that he emigrated to the US where he re-married and had twin sons. Annullment in those days would not have been affordable to the man on the street, so I did wonder. Then my mother said Simon was daughter Ellen's step-father. There may be some truth somewhere in the sisters' comments but it may be that, given the circumstances you indicate, they were fed diversionary information from their mother/older relations, to eliminate further questioning.
Simon was a tailor who worked in Whitechapel. Ellen was a tailoress. My mother remembered her 'Granny Crawley' who was also a tailoress, sitting with sewing. I note that the name Crawley was used, so, as you said, she used her maiden name (as she obviously didn't get married) and her daughter reverted to Winter on her marriage certificate to keep the records correct.
Another aspect which adds ammunition is that Ellen, the daughter, was brought up, according to my mother's sisters, by Mary Ladbrook who, with her husband, two daughters and one son, lived at 61 Sheridan Street in the East End. Mary is given as a 'seed sorter' on the census; later Ellen, the daughter, does the same work. Another Crawley/Crowley, Mary, lived there too, and is shown as age 77. I believe Mary Ladbrook was a Crawley too; records indicate she married Henry William Ladbrook in 1893. Ellen Crawley, the mother, appears as a tailoress in London, living elsewhere, so perhaps mother and daughter lived separately for some years.
The other strange addition to the Winter/Crawley saga is that Ellen (according to my mother and her sisters) also married Michael Crawley (when, I don't know). They said he was a sailor who bought a boarding house in Cape Town and later died there. A repeat of the Crawley name is odd or perhaps he came along first, they were married and Ellen took his name.
So far, I haven't been able to trace Simon, or his parents on immigration records and what happened to him is a mystery. I can't find any death records that seem relevant. It would be great to contact one of his descendants, so I shall keep trying, but any ideas/help would be brilliant. Also Michael Crawley, an apparently married man, heading for South Africa seems odd. There seem altogether to be too many red herrings. Thanks for your patience in reading this.
Simon was a tailor who worked in Whitechapel. Ellen was a tailoress. My mother remembered her 'Granny Crawley' who was also a tailoress, sitting with sewing. I note that the name Crawley was used, so, as you said, she used her maiden name (as she obviously didn't get married) and her daughter reverted to Winter on her marriage certificate to keep the records correct.
Another aspect which adds ammunition is that Ellen, the daughter, was brought up, according to my mother's sisters, by Mary Ladbrook who, with her husband, two daughters and one son, lived at 61 Sheridan Street in the East End. Mary is given as a 'seed sorter' on the census; later Ellen, the daughter, does the same work. Another Crawley/Crowley, Mary, lived there too, and is shown as age 77. I believe Mary Ladbrook was a Crawley too; records indicate she married Henry William Ladbrook in 1893. Ellen Crawley, the mother, appears as a tailoress in London, living elsewhere, so perhaps mother and daughter lived separately for some years.
The other strange addition to the Winter/Crawley saga is that Ellen (according to my mother and her sisters) also married Michael Crawley (when, I don't know). They said he was a sailor who bought a boarding house in Cape Town and later died there. A repeat of the Crawley name is odd or perhaps he came along first, they were married and Ellen took his name.
So far, I haven't been able to trace Simon, or his parents on immigration records and what happened to him is a mystery. I can't find any death records that seem relevant. It would be great to contact one of his descendants, so I shall keep trying, but any ideas/help would be brilliant. Also Michael Crawley, an apparently married man, heading for South Africa seems odd. There seem altogether to be too many red herrings. Thanks for your patience in reading this.
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