St Nicholas Parish Church Brighton

[Luna]

I know that my Great Grandfather Albert Thompson was baptised in St Nicholas Church Brighton East Sussex on 6 February 1828. His father was Francis Thompson and Mother Elizabeth. My query is that I know from his marriage certificate that his father was a Wine Merchant. However the only one I can find hat fits the bill is in London and has all his other children in London, I am worried that I am looking at the wrong parents and that maybe there is a Francis Thompson and Elizabeth married in Brighton Can anyone help with any suggestions or does anyone know if I can access the church records online Thank you

 

[emeltee]

If Albert was their first child it is possible that they moved to London after his birth.

Emeltee

 

[stockpot]

I can't answer you question but I have looked at the censuses, baptisms etc and can see your problem.

One thing I can suggest is to get the "letters of administration with will annexed" for Francis Thompson, with any luck it will mention his son Albert with enough detail for you to know whether it is your man.

Francis and Eliza were lodging in Cambridge in the 1861 census. He dropped dead suddenly in church in June 1862, as reported in detail in the Cambridge Chronicle and Journal of 28 June 1862.

Admin was granted to Eliza Newby widow of Cambridge. Francis's London address is also given and is the same as where the Wine Merchant was living in 1841 with son Albert etc.

Eliza Newby was the daughter of Francis and Eliza Thompson, bapt in London in 1809, and she was living in Cambridge in 1861, hence Francis visiting Cambridge.

The interesting thing is that she married William Newby at St Nicholas Brighton in 1830, so that does show that the wine merchant in London in the 1841census did indeed spend time in Brighton around 1830.

Personally I think that is good enough but hopefully the admin will clinch it.
Good Luck
Elaine

 

[Luna]

Elaine


Thank you so much for this this has really helped me breakdown some brick walls. I am going to try and do some more search today if I can get some time and not work so I will come back to you.

 

[Luna]

If Albert was their first child it is possible that they moved to London after his birth.

Emeltee

Thanks for this but unfortunately he was their last child

 

[Luna]

I can't answer you question but I have looked at the censuses, baptisms etc and can see your problem.

One thing I can suggest is to get the "letters of administration with will annexed" for Francis Thompson, with any luck it will mention his son Albert with enough detail for you to know whether it is your man.

Francis and Eliza were lodging in Cambridge in the 1861 census. He dropped dead suddenly in church in June 1862, as reported in detail in the Cambridge Chronicle and Journal of 28 June 1862.

Admin was granted to Eliza Newby widow of Cambridge. Francis's London address is also given and is the same as where the Wine Merchant was living in 1841 with son Albert etc.

Eliza Newby was the daughter of Francis and Eliza Thompson, bapt in London in 1809, and she was living in Cambridge in 1861, hence Francis visiting Cambridge.

The interesting thing is that she married William Newby at St Nicholas Brighton in 1830, so that does show that the wine merchant in London in the 1841census did indeed spend time in Brighton around 1830.

Personally I think that is good enough but hopefully the admin will clinch it.
Good Luck
Elaine

THis all sounds very interesting and I think helps. I have a slight issue with Eliza Newby birth in St Bartholomew The Great in London on 17 Feb 1809 as it says she was born on 20 Nov 1808.

I have the following children for Francis and Elizabeth. They all show Francis to be a Wine Merchant and various address all match up. I know that Francis was a Wine Merchant as Albert's son was my grandfather and from his birth certificate it shows Albert as his father in the right place at the right time and I know from my father something of the family history. Alberts marriage Certficiate shows Francis Wine Merchant as his father. So, so far so good.

Children are Richard b 10 Jan 1806
Edward b 3 Nov 1808
Emma b 6 May 1811 all these 3 bapt at St Mary's Lambeth in 1813
Charles 1822 bapt Christchurch City of London
Albert 1828 Brighton

Two problems 1) Eliz Newby nee Thompson I have a record showing b 20 Nov 1808 bapt 17 Feb 1809 St Bartholomew The Great Church London this clashes with Edward
2) Also worried that I may not have the marriage for Francis and Elizabeth correct I think it is Elizabeth Bailey 30 Oct 1808 in St Andrew by the Wardrobe Church London although no mention of Wine Merchant only the banns. (Can you get a marriage Certificate for this early?)

I have also found a marriage in 30 October 1808 to Elizabeth Munt in St Saviour Southwark
less likely
21 February 1795 St Marylebone Westimster to and Elizabeth Dodd.

To say I am stuck and confused is an understatement.

Thank you for the piece on Cambridge that now makes a whole lot of sense and also I think Elizabeth must be right as that would make sense as to why they were in Brighton when Albert was born Also Newby comes up as a second name in one of Albert's Children's name. Any suggestions would be greatfully received

 

[Luna]

I hope you can see my reply Elaine as I am not sure I am posting right being new to this forum Thanks

 

[stockpot]

I seem to be going round in circles looking at this and I'm afraid I am no further on!

I agree there is a clash of birthdates for Eliza & Edward, both born 1808.

In fact in 1851 Eliza Newby is 39 and in 1871 she is 62 so was born any time around 1809 - 1812. I wonder whether she could be the Emma Thompson born 1811 and either her name was wrongly entered in the register or she has wanted to be called Eliza ? Edward who was also bapt 1813 is given as Edwin in 1841.

I expect you have seen that Eliza Thompson's will was proven in 1864 by Edward Bailey. this supports the Bailey/Thompson marriage of 1808 thought the first child was born in 1806. Perhaps this is why the children weren't baptised till 1813.

By the way I have found 3 more children for Eliza and Francis, wine merchant. Henry Augustus 1818, Harriet Ann 1820 both at Christchurch like Charles 1822, and then Walter 1824 at St Marylebone. (Eliza Newby had a son Augustus Henry in 1834))

To see the St Nicholas parish registers for the bapt of Albert and marriage of Eliza Thompson you could visit the LDS family History Centre at Romford. They can order the films for you for a small fee, you don't have to be a church member. See http://www.essex-family-history.co.uk/familyhistorycentres.htm for details. I used my local centre a lot in the past and they were always very helpful.

Good luck with your search!

 

[Luna]

Hi Elaine Thanks for all the help and the extra children and information. I think this will need a great deal more investigation when I have the time to do more through research. I am going to move on to other family members and get all their information up to date I am trying to sort our and tidy my trees up a bit and check all my info I have collated is correct.

Can I ask how did you find out about the other children especially when there is no census records Maybe a silly question but I am only just learning about how best to use Parish Records.

Thanks again

 

[stockpot]

The three extra births are on Ancestry, in the data set "London England Church of England Births and Baptisms 1813 - 1916" which has images of the actual registers.

I was trying to fill the gaps in the family so just searched for the surname with parents Francis and Eliza then checked on the image to confirm that the father was a wine merchant.

Henry Augustus Thompson died in 1893 and is easy to follow through the censuses as Henry A Thompson. Stayed close to home in London.

Harriet Ann Thompson born Aug 6 1820, bapt 5 Jan 1821, died 4 Feb 1821

Walter Thompson I can't find anything about, assume he died before 1841. Henry Augustus named a son Walter in 1850.

Finally I have just had another search around on Ancestry:-

Looking for Francis Thompson in Sussex 1830+-5yrs brings up an entry in the data set "UK City and County Directories 1766 - 1946" it is the 1832 - 1834 Pigot's Directory of Sussex which has :-

Wine and Spirit Merchants...Francis Thompson 6 Marine Parade Brighton

so that looks like proof that Francis and family spent time in Brighton.

note this entry does not come up if you search for "Brighton" it has to be Sussex which is in the name of the Directory. You just have to play around altering the searches slightly.

Well good luck with your further work!
Elaine

 

[Luna]

Thanks Elaine That is very helpful I would never have thought to do the research like that it is all about thinking out the box isn't it. Its been so interesting I am going to try and do some more research on this family as being my paternal grandparents there was always a lot of rumour about Francis Son Albert my Great Grandfather - He was apparently a gambler who was Lord of the Manor supposedly and lost it all on the turn of a card. How true this is I do not know but should be interesting trying to find out. I do know that he lived in Capenor Court in Portishead near Bristol and that he was a collector of Taxes and on my Grandfather's birth cert he is a gentleman but then they move and he becomes a sadler. So wish me luck. Thanks again and I had the info on Harriet and Henry but always good to know I am going right.

 

[Luna]

The three extra births are on Ancestry, in the data set "London England Church of England Births and Baptisms 1813 - 1916" which has images of the actual registers.

I was trying to fill the gaps in the family so just searched for the surname with parents Francis and Eliza then checked on the image to confirm that the father was a wine merchant.

Henry Augustus Thompson died in 1893 and is easy to follow through the censuses as Henry A Thompson. Stayed close to home in London.

Harriet Ann Thompson born Aug 6 1820, bapt 5 Jan 1821, died 4 Feb 1821

Walter Thompson I can't find anything about, assume he died before 1841. Henry Augustus named a son Walter in 1850.

Finally I have just had another search around on Ancestry:-

Looking for Francis Thompson in Sussex 1830+-5yrs brings up an entry in the data set "UK City and County Directories 1766 - 1946" it is the 1832 - 1834 Pigot's Directory of Sussex which has :-

Wine and Spirit Merchants...Francis Thompson 6 Marine Parade Brighton

so that looks like proof that Francis and family spent time in Brighton.

note this entry does not come up if you search for "Brighton" it has to be Sussex which is in the name of the Directory. You just have to play around altering the searches slightly.

Well good luck with your further work!
Elaine

Hi Elaine

I know this was a couple of years ago but with lock down and being furloughed I have been doing some more research. I would value your opinion on this.

I now know lots more about my Great Grandfather Albert (the one born in Brighton). It was definitely the right family as I have followed the family through. Frances and Elizabeth actually moved to 6 Marine Parade in Brighton and set up as a wine merchant as you said One of their children was in Brighton and in fact married William John Newby there at St Nicholas and eventually moved to Cambridge to work there which is where both Frances and Elizabeth died. Elizabeth Newby is granted probate in her father Francis Will as Elizabeth Newby of Parkers Piece in Cambridge which I have found her on a census record and this is just across the way from her parents Francis and Elizabeth house I agree it is odd that Elizabeth and Elizabeth have both the same year of birth. but Edward Richard and Emma are all Baptised on the same day and also a different church from the one their parents were married in but if she had given birth before their marriage it would make sense they wanted to use a different church and there could of course be a zillion other reasons for the change in Church which is still very close to their location at the time

As you quite right said it would appear that Elizabeth was a Bailey as probate is given to Edward Bailey the Younger I have researched extensively The Bailey family Edward I believe was the son of Edward Savage Bailey 1795 - 1870 both were solicitors in London and are extensively found on Ancestry. I have even been in contact with a member of the family for whom Edward Savage Bailey was a direct decendant. I cannot find an Elizabeth Bailey any where connected to them but I do feel this is correct. Elizabeth Bailey/Newby's age does seem to change throughout her life

My worry is that I have the right Elizabeth Bailey marrying Francis Thompson in St Andrews by the Wardrobe in London on 23 January 1808 and a Baptisim for her in St Andrews Holborn in 9 January 1791 parents Richard Bailey and Elizabeth Vennable this would make her only 15 when she had her first child but that is because we are assuming that she was born the same year she was baptized. She may not have been. Any help you can give me would be really welcome by me as this is driving me insane and Elizabeth is such an important person in my tree being my 2nd Great Grandmother. Many thanks Marion Cottis(nee Thompson)