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Thomas ANGEL x2 in 1841

DaveHam9

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#1
Hello,

This is a crazy puzzle. I have one Thomas ANGEL, son of Mary CLARK who married in 1843 in Cheshire/Lancashire and I have another Thomas ANGEL, parents unknown who married in 1844 in Paisley.

The family name has appeared in records as ANGEL, ANGELL, ANGLE, ANGIE, ANOAL.

1. Thomas b. 20 Feb 1820 Paisley

married Mary CLEMENT/CLEMENTS b. 1820 Paisley

In FreeBMD Choose Cheshire - but RD is in Lancs.
Marriages Sep 1843
ANGEL Thomas Ashton &c 20 79
CLEMENTS Mary Ashton &c 20 79

One record says they married in Stockport, Cheshire.

They had 3 children, one girl died young:

Births Sep 1844 Lancashire
Angel Thomas Ashton 20 20

Births Dec 1846
Angel John Ashton & 20 17

They went back to Paisley between 1853 and early 1855.

Please see if you can find
Thomas b. 1820
Mary b.1820
Thomas b. 1844
John b. 1846

in Cheshire/Lancashire in 1851. Thanks
-------------------------------------------------

2. Thomas ANGEL b. ? parents ?

married Helen CHRISTIE b. ? parents ?

in Paisley on 30 Nov 1844. No record can be found for the birth of any children.

Please see if you can find them in 1851 only.

Thanks.

Dave
 

nainmaddie

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#2
Dear Dave
I tried to find Thomas and Helen in Paisley in 1851 and failed even with surname variant on.
I then tried to find the Thomas,Mary in 1851 in cheshire and Lancs and failed also.
I am sorry that I have not found them for you, I have a few of my own that are not living where they are meant to be, so I know how you feel.
I forgot to say that I tried Paisley Burgh,Lower and Middle
Maddie
 

DaveHam9

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#3
Hello Maddie,

Thank you for looking. I'm not surprised. The family name is very uncommon in Scotland so somewhere there has to be connections to England. There are so many things with this family that don't add up.

Nothing can be found for either Thomas or Helen after their marriage in 1844.

The other Thomas was still alive in 1891 and in Dunbarton with his 3rd wife. In 1871, 1881 & 1891 he is listed as born C.Kent, England. So curious. I have viewed the fiche in Dunfermline Library and checked on SP and nothing indicates he was not born in Paisley.

Regards,

Dave
 

pejay

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#4
No luck with the 1851 census,. However not sure if these are who you are looking for found them on the IGi -

Helen Christie b 1819 East Parish, Greenock, Renfrewshire

parents John Christie
Lillias Donaldson

there was another HeLLen Christie born 1810 but I wasn't sure about that as she would have been 34 when she married, still check the IGI see what you think. Also -

Thomas Angel ch 17/.3.1820 Low Church, Paisley


parents Thomas Angel & Mary Clark

There were also 2 records of his birth also in 1820 but these were member submitted, so I would be careful with these. :)

sorry I just noticed you have parents already for this one
 
Last edited:

DaveHam9

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#5
Hello pejay,

Re Helen Christie we would be guessing. There is nothing in the marriage record and nothing in census to give us a clue as to her age. We have no death record either. I found this one but there are probably others:

19/07/1826 CHRISTIE HELEN MALCOM CHRISTIE/JEAN BEITH F Campbeltown /ARGYLL 507/ 0060 0128

There is no sign of a second Thomas born in Scotland to be the one who married Helen.

One possible reason for not finding them in 1851 census is that they were in England. I know there are a lot more ANGELs in southern England. In fact I think all ANGELs in Scotland originated in Ashburton, Devon but I can't prove that just yet.

Please see if you can find any likely Thomas & Helen in England in 1851. Possibly children's ages might indicate a marriage around 1844.

Thanks.

Dave

Thanks
 

pejay

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#6
Sorry - cannot find a Thomas Angel married to Helen or Ellen,in England maybe for some reason they are not on it, or it could be badly transcribed, maybe there are some pages missing? I know there are some missing from the 1861 english census.
 

nainmaddie

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#9
Dear Daveham9
Would you like me to look up the Angel clan in Ashburton when I am next in the Record office or the Devon Family history society ? You never know what I might find, it would certainly give me something to do as I have a brick wall. I have found a baptism but the marriage certainly was not in Devon.
Best wishes Nainmaddie
 

DaveHam9

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#10
Hello Nainmaddie,

That would be great, thanks. I have just received the death record for Thomas to add to what his discharge said. Going by his age at discharge and his age in 1841 census age of 71 at death in 1848 is a bit out. I can't prove yet that his parents are John and Joan Irish and that he is the one baptised on 4 Apr 1785 at Ilsington, Devon, but the date and place fit.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/
You can see here indexed discharge papers for Thomas Angel, served 1803-1821 in the 40th and the 4th Royal Veteran, was 36 when discharged in 1821, and was born Ashburton, Devonshire

Abbey 08/07/1848 Thomas ANGEL

Thomas Angel, 4th Battalion of Veterans, resided at Prussia Street, born in England, age 71

A connected family is the GIFFORD.

Paisley Abbey Churchyard S2:425
Thos. Angel & Steven Gifford & their wives & chn.

Thomas and Stephen were both in the 4th Bat. and looks like both eneded up in Paisley where they married CLARK sisters.

I don't know where in England Stephen came from, yet. My next job is to try and find his discharge details. I hate the National Archives site :rolleyes:

Regards,

Fred
 

DaveHam9

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#11
Hello Nainmaddie,

Details from death record:

"1856 June 27 Lair 88 New G Stephen Gifford labourer 22 Causeyside St England Palsy 71"

Age in census also point to a birth date of 1785-1786. However this does not but it's the only one:

WO 97/699/14
STEPHEN GIFFORD
Born RAMSGATE, Kent
Served in 57th Foot Regiment
Discharged aged 39
1803-1818

I found this:

Stephan GIFFARD
c. 25 Mar 1786 St Laurence (Thanet), Kent, England
Robert & Mary - Private IGI

Ramsgate is a sub-district of Thanet (Isle of Thanet)

The date is too close to ignore. All I can say is the age at discharge is a bit out.

Regards,

Dave
 

nainmaddie

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#12
Dear Dave
I have just been searching the Ilsington registers for a William Whiteway !! I thought this one would be easy. Wrong !!
I should be able to get there at least once this week but with the Easter W/E I shall be one day short.
You are also working in the Medway region as I am, strange that . Pity that we are not working on the same names.
Anyway I will look at the two parishes and hope to get into Treetops and see if they have anything indexed. I will get back to you when I have anything to report
Maddie
 

nainmaddie

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#14
Dear Dave
I spent some hours in the Record office today. All I can confirm today is that there was
Ilsington Devon Parish records

Thomas son of John and Joan Angel baptised 4th April 1785.

John son of John and Joan Angel baptised 24 Sept. 1782.

I searched for more children and found nothing.
I also searched the marriage registers and found nothing.

Sometime maybe tommorow I will search the marriage index for Devon and see what comes up.
I was unable to access the Ashburton records as someone was using them for a long time.
I have to say that Ilsington did not employ curates with good writing abilities or organisational tendencies.
Will be in touch as soon as possible
Maddie
 

DaveHam9

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#15
Hello Maddie,

Thank you very much. I've been very lucky so far with the few marriage and death certificates I've purchased with probably 90% readable.

Marriage 10 Mar 1778 Buckfastleigh ??

Marja 12 Jan 1779 Buckfastleigh ??

Regards,

Dave
 

nainmaddie

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#16
welcome


Hi Dave
I hope the welcome man looks more promising than my news. The FHS rooms were closed this afternoon, so it looks like next week for my search in to the Angels
Best wishes for the weekend
Maddie
 

nainmaddie

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#18
Dear Dave
I have been into the FHS today and I totally lost the thread just now so I hope we are still in touch if I add this today. I sent you the baptism of Thomas Angel and ?l brother.
In the marriages for Buckfastleigh
John Angel married Joan Irish in 1778 03 10.

If you want me to look up the parish records in the Record office for their births let me know. I might be there tomorrow , not sure yet whether I have got the strength to face the microfiche reader !! Also not sure of the dates of the parish until I have got there
Maddie
 

DaveHam9

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#19
Hello Maddie,

Thank you for that. Whenever you happen to be there any ANGEL born or died in Ilsington, Ashburton or Buckfastleigh area is of interest, especially any Samuel or Charles.

Thanks,

Dave
 

nainmaddie

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#20
Dear Dave
I hope that you have found my original message re John Angel and Joan Irish. I keep losing myself !!
I also noted from the Buckfastleigh Burials
1824 John Angell 01/07/24 Infant

Marriages
Joahn Irish and Joan Dolbeare 16/03/1786
 
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