Thomas Shiel HAYNES

[MikeP]

found this 1861 census RG09- Piece 4438, Folio 172, Page 1 - Royal Navy at sea or at ports abroad

on board vessel Broadwater

Thomas Haynes 38 Builder, England
Dorothy Haynes 34 Lady, England

Census taken somewhere at sea (lat 49-14 long 6-8 ) between Gravesend, London and Auckland, New Zealand

dave

The ages and names are very close. I wonder whether there has been a bit of poetic licence taken with her age. Given that she lived to be 103 and died in 1925, her age should be listed as 39.
It's also amazing that they didn't have their first child, Richard Henry until 1864 and were married in 1852.

 

[MikeP]

Yes, one reason to doubt that's the right marriage. Not enough has fallen into place yet to be sure.

Mike, do you have anything that says Richard Henry was the eldest? Or just that his is the first reg found in the index? There is a family in my tree who arrived in NZ from England then moved to NSW and not all reg of children born in NZ are in the index.

Dave

Dave

Mary Elizabeth Rosner (nee Haynes) is my GGmother and my GFather was her eldest (Alexander Shiel Rosner). He wrote a brief tree very late in life and only mentioned "uncle Richard (Haynes) died age 86.
So I have no knowledge of any other children prior to Richard - but it does seem unusual that there were no others .............
I guess we should keep an open mind to this possibility.

 

[DaveHam9]

I thought perhaps children were not mentioned but:

Mrs. Honiss and child

so it seems they arrived with no children. Son Richard is the first in the index but may or may not have been the first. Was wondering if any later ref had him listed as the 'eldest son of...' or similar.

Also:

Dorothy Haynes 34 Lady, England

that indicates some status in society, possibly the daughter of a clergyman or RN officer or politician or ...

If that is the right marriage then not having much luck with a Dorothy LEEDHAM.

I had no luck finding a tree searching for any Dorothy who died in NZ in 1925 aged 100-103.

 

[DaveHam9]

Electoral Roll
Thomas Shiel Haynes 1870-1871 Newton - Auckland
Thomas Shiel Haynes 1875-1876 Auckland West - Auckland
Thomas Shiel Haynes 1880-1881 Auckland West - Auckland
Thomas Shiel Haynes 1890 Waitemata - Auckland
Thomas Shiel Haynes 1896 Eden - Auckland


New Zealand Herald, Rōrahi X, Putanga 2815, 5 Huitanguru 1873, Page 2
New Zealand Herald, Volume X, Issue 2815, 5 February 1873, Page 2
Notice is given that the estate of Thomas Shiel Haynes has been vested in the Provisional Trustee in Bankruptcy.

 

[MikeP]

Dave I am convinced we have the right Haynes's!
Whether Dorothy was born 1822 or 1825 does not alter the facts that have been discovered so far.

Papers Past
Evening Post
15 December 1925 Page 13

A Press Association message from Auckland reports the death of Sirs.

Dorothy Haynes, at the age of &3. Mrs. Haynes came to Auckland from

Staffordshire 64 years ago, and resided at Northcote for 45 years. She kept a

hostelry there when the district was in its infancy.

Therefore she (they) arrived in NZ in 1861 :biggrin:
And assuming the newspaper message is correct, she originated from Staffordshire, resided at Northcote for 45yrs (1906), where she ran a hostelery, and then lived somewhere else in Auckland.

K Norton is on the Staffs border with Warks and Worcs


Marriages Mar 1852

Haynes Thomas Kings Norton 6c 425
Leedham Dorothy Kings Norton 6c 425
Millington Hannah Kings Norton 6c 425
Millward Daniel K Norton 6c 425

Kings Norton is very close to Staffordshire and although a quick check does not indicate that it was ever part of the Registration County of Staffordshire,
getting married there doesn't rule out anything.

The ship, "Broadwater," 577 tons, Captain Stockman, arrived here from

London, on Sunday night, after a passage of 114 days.

My grandfather's notes state that they "sailed to New Zealand before the Maori wars ina sailing ship, trip 128 days died 78 & 103."
BDMNZ record death 1897/5273 Haynes Thomas Shiel 75yr - so my grandfather's notes are not entirely accurate and I daresay it could be a similar trick of his memory that he has stated that the trip took 128 days instead of the officially recorded 114 days.

What do you think?
What should I be looking for to further corroborate all this?

 

[MikeP]

Electoral Roll
Thomas Shiel Haynes 1870-1871 Newton - Auckland
Thomas Shiel Haynes 1875-1876 Auckland West - Auckland
Thomas Shiel Haynes 1880-1881 Auckland West - Auckland
Thomas Shiel Haynes 1890 Waitemata - Auckland
Thomas Shiel Haynes 1896 Eden - Auckland


New Zealand Herald, Rōrahi X, Putanga 2815, 5 Huitanguru 1873, Page 2
New Zealand Herald, Volume X, Issue 2815, 5 February 1873, Page 2
Notice is given that the estate of Thomas Shiel Haynes has been vested in the Provisional Trustee in Bankruptcy.

Lots of useful information here. I wonder what the Provisional Trustee in Bankruptcy is all about Would be interested in anything further re this. It's also interesting that Northcote is not mentioned in the above - but maybe it is part of those electorates. I don't have an intimate knowledge of Auckland - but will research further. Also looks like a fair bit of moving around. Not sure how that fits in with Dorothy running a hostelry for 45yrs

 

[DaveHam9]

I also don't know much about Auckland or the electoral divisions there. It may not mean a lot of moving around but simply the moving of the electoral boundaries.

That can probably be checked.


The newspapers may not have more info re bankruptcy. I searched for 'thomas shiel haynes' and got only 3 hits.


I agree it must be them on the 'Broadwater' however it's curious the census says it's a RN vessel but no such name on the list of vessels for that period. The 'Lady' bit interests me. As does the middle name Shiel.

I'd like to see Thomas and Dorothy in 1851 and Thomas in 1841 census if they can be found.

You could get a copy of the 1852 marriage in the hope it provides info re parents.

 

[MikeP]

I had no luck finding a tree searching for any Dorothy who died in NZ in 1925 aged 100-103.

Dave

I don't think you will because I know Mary Elizabeth's descendants are all in Australia, predominantly NSW and particularly, Sydney. Her brother, Richard Henry Haynes b.1864 married Tamar Fenton BDMNZ1896/329 and had a son BDMNZ 1896/18500 Robert Henry de Woolf Haynes. I have not managed to find any further descendants of this son.

Mary Elizabeth married my G Grandfather Aleksander Rosner, at Govt House, Auckland according to the information I have been told (not always correct as we know). Aleksander was an engineer on the Suez Canal with de Lessops and lost his first wife and infant whilst in Cairo. He then went to Fiji and ended up making a lot of dough with his bakery at Levuka:2fun: So Mary Elizabeth lived with him in Fiji, where my Grandfather, Alexander Shiel Rosner was born in 1885 and another 4 children followed - last one born 1890.

From what I can gather, he left Fiji about 1896 with the intention of travelling to Paris to collect the wages he had not received whilst he had been working on the Suez Canal. Unfortunately he contracted polio enroute and disembarked in Sydney. He never returned to Europe to collect his wages. He apparently had 80,000 pounds stirling when he arrived in Sydney and he bought an incredible porfolio of properties There's lots more to this story but I think it's irrelevant at present.

I wonder what chance I would have of trying to get the money out of the Paris Bank. 150 yrs compound interest Yeah I know. Buckley's:2fun: &

 

[DaveHam9]

Buckley's Mike. :biggrin:

Oh, so many Thomas HAYNES in 1851. FS is no good for 1851 because it ignores the age range.

 

[DaveHam9]

Northern Advocate , 15 December 1925, Page 5
OBITUARY
... 98 years on May 24 last, ...

HERE


Fits age in 1841 census post #13 - not born Warwickshire.

Father Stephen is a carpenter. Still puzzled by the "Lady" bit.

This fits that 1841 census:

Name: John Leedham
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 03 Feb 1825
Christening Place: COLWICH,STAFFORD,ENGLAND
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Stephen Leedham
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Mary
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C04972-1
System Origin: England-ODM
GS Film number: 426529
Reference ID:

County Staffordshire
Place Colwich
Church St Michael and All Saints
RegisterNumber 709
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 03 Feb 1825
Forename John
*** M
FatherForename Stephen
MotherForename Mary
FatherSurname LEEDHAM
MotherSurname
Abode Little haywood
FatherOccupation Joiner.
Notes
FileNumber 5312


No sign of Dorothy.

 

[DaveHam9]

You can be lucky sometimes. :biggrin:

So born 24 May 1827.

County Staffordshire
Place Colwich
Church St Michael and All Saints
RegisterNumber 861
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 28 May 1827
Forename Dorothy
*** F
FatherForename Stephen
MotherForename Mary
FatherSurname LEATHAM
MotherSurname
Abode Little haywood
FatherOccupation Carpenter
Notes
FileNumber 5312


And another variation:

Name: Dorothy Latham
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 28 May 1827
Christening Place: COLWICH,STAFFORD,ENGLAND
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Stephen Latham
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Mary
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C04972-1
System Origin: England-ODM
GS Film number: 426529
Reference ID:

 

[MikeP]

You can be lucky sometimes. :biggrin:

So born 24 May 1827.

County Staffordshire
Place Colwich
Church St Michael and All Saints
RegisterNumber 861
DateOfBirth
BaptismDate 28 May 1827
Forename Dorothy
*** F
FatherForename Stephen
MotherForename Mary
FatherSurname LEATHAM
MotherSurname
Abode Little haywood
FatherOccupation Carpenter
Notes
FileNumber 5312


And another variation:

Name: Dorothy Latham
Gender: Female
Christening Date: 28 May 1827
Christening Place: COLWICH,STAFFORD,ENGLAND
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Stephen Latham
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Mary
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C04972-1
System Origin: England-ODM
GS Film number: 426529
Reference ID:

Great find Dave
Getting younger every day i wish:biggrin:

 

[DaveHam9]

At last we are getting some things to fit.

I can't find the marriage of Stephen and Mary.

I think we need luck to find the right Thomas in 1851.

I've looked in Scotland because of the middle name Shiel but no luck so far.

 

[MikeP]

I'm not so keen on the name change - Latham

 

[DaveHam9]

Pretend you didn't see that variation. :biggrin:

We need another brick out of the wall.

 

[davelambert271]

hi Mike

just checking you saw the link on post 15 to the voyage of the Broadwater

dave

 

[MikeP]

Hi Dave

Yes thanks. Very interesting.

Cheers

Mike

 

[DaveHam9]

I think we are stuck, Mike.

I can't find any more that helps.

 

[MikeP]

I think we are stuck, Mike.

I can't find any more that helps.

I am now 100% sure the name we are looking for is Dorothy Leedham.
All the children have family names and the name Leedham appears as the second given name of the second eldest son:

Adolphus Leedham Rosner Born:1886 Died:Circa 1974 (at age ‎~88‏)
The eldest son is Alexander Shiel Rosner

I know that census records can have names misspelt. I need to take a closer look at a couple of the posts in this thread. I'm not sure we're done yet.

 

[DaveHam9]

The census records can have all sorts of things wrong with them. Incorrect information given to enumerator, details incorrectly written down, records incorrectly transcribed, ...

It's good that some descendants have middle names for confirmation.

I agree there are gaps unfilled, but I'm stuck. I don't know where Shiel comes from and I can't find a marriage.

SHIEL surname - HERE

Dave