UK to Burma - late 1800's early 1900's

[andygibb]

Please be patient when reading this as I have to set the background before I ask the question!

My great grandfather, James Gibb was married to Jane Waddell in Rangoon in 1880 ( I have copies of their marraige record) and had four daughters, two of whom were born in Rangoon ( Isabella Gibb in 1881 and Margaret Gibb in 1884), two of his other daughters were born in Polmont, Scotland (Helen in 1882 and Mary in 1886). I know Isabella and Margaret came back to the UK as I have records for their later life.

At some point after Mary's birth the couple split James and Jane having returned to Scotland.

He then met a Jane Younger, and went back to Burma, having my grandad, also James, born there on 27th September 1901. My great grand mother, Jane Younger (known as Gibb but was never married to him as he had never divorced the other Jane!) and my grandad returned to Scotland sometime between 1901 and 1913 but I cant' narrow that down.

My great grandfather, James Gibb died and was buried in Rangoon ( I have copies of his death/burial record), Burma on 8th June 1912.

HERE IS MY PROBLEM: I can find no record of any of them returning to the UK, or indeed any record of any of them going to Burma.

There are many ship journeys that must have been involved in this story and I find it strange that I can not locate ONE ships log for any of them, even those carried out after 1890.

I have posted a query on this site once before and many of you were very helpful, so does anyone know if ships logs for this area exist? What ships took the route? or if not could anyone suggest where I write, or enquire to see if i can get this information?

This whole story has developed from research online about the family, as my own close family never knew that a) my great grandad had not married my grandads mother, or b) that he had infact been married to someone else, and had four girls to them!!!

Families.....who would have them?

All the best

 

[oznannie]

Hi andygibb
What a fascinating family tree you have, thank you for posting.
I'm sure our folk here will be able to help.
In the meantime, I have to go back and read again.
Cheers

oznannie

 

[jay]

As you don'y mention where you have researched, have you tried the National Archives?

 

[leefer]

Hi Andy.....had a look for ship records but nothing...they will be out there somewhere though i reckon.

I am sure you have seen this but just in case the link below maybe of interest.

Bottom right of page.

http://www.edinburgh-gazette.co.uk/issues/12630/pages/15/page.pdf

Also another record with some more Waddel marriages.

http://www.anglo-scots.mlfhs.org.uk/W Y Z.pdf

 

[horse]

Hi

Given the following they must have made a few trips:
Isabella b. 1881, Burma
Helen b. 1882, Scotland
Margaret b. 1884, Burma
Mary b. 1886, Scotland

Was the James b. about 1848 possibly James (Hardie or Hardy) Gibb?

This may be useful:

FMP Passenger lists:
Name:GIBB J
DOB:Unknown
***: M
Dep year:1904
Dep Port: Southampton
Dest Country: Burma
Dest Port:Rangoon

Geoff

 

[leefer]

Any ship name Geoff?

His middle name was Hardy i am sure....it has it on the link i posted above.

 

[horse]

Thanks, leefer.

Yeah, the main reason I asked; there is a James H Gibb b. abt. 1850, one of the relatives is a James Hardie (as opposed to Hardy) Gibb, b. Polmont:
1851 Scotland Census about James Hardie
Name: James Hardie
Age: 79
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1772
Relationship: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: Polmont, Stirlingshire
Parish Number: 479
Civil parish: Falkirk
County: Stirlingshire
Address: Saltoun Cottage
Occupation: Feuar
ED: 2A
Household schedule number: 460
Line: 5
Roll: CSSCT1851_100
Household Members:
Name Age
James Hardie 79
Grace Hardie 69, sis, 1782, Polmont
Wm Gibb 30, relative's wife. b. abt. 1821, Cumbernauld. Occ: Seaman's wife
Janet Stirling 18, servant, b. abt. 1833, Cumbernaild
James H Gibb 6 Mo, relative's child, b. abt. 1850

[The details about Wm. look a bit erroneous]

Re. the ship name: No, it was from an FMP list (not a full member). Though looking at other records on other sites, City Line ships have travelled to Rangoon, Burma.

Geoff

 

[leefer]

Thanks Geoff....lets hope Andy gets a breakthrough soon.

 

[andygibb]

Hi Andy.....had a look for ship records but nothing...they will be out there somewhere though i reckon.

I am sure you have seen this but just in case the link below maybe of interest.

Bottom right of page.

http://www.edinburgh-gazette.co.uk/issues/12630/pages/15/page.pdf

Also another record with some more Waddel marriages.

http://www.anglo-scots.mlfhs.org.uk/W Y Z.pdf

The Edinburgh gazette article was how I first found out that James senior had the two families...and which came as quite a shock to me. There are further entries in the publication on Feb 10 1914, March 20 1914, August 24 1915 and Nov 27 1915 all relating to the same case, which eventually got thrown out.

Also in The Dundee Courier newspaper on 15th Nov 1913 there is a seperate case reported where James snr had tried to sell a house in Linlithgow prior to his death in Burma, and the selling agent was trying to get money from his estate from my great gran who tried to deny any liability as she was not his wife...but she lost the case and had to pay 56 punds 13 shilling and 9 pence...the house had not sold as it had not reached its asking price.

James snr died in Burma of stomach cancer and it looks like he was trying to sell the property before he returned to Burma, possibly knowing he was dying!!

Also ...just an aside... I have researched all his girls to Jane Waddell and am infact in touch now with some of their decendants....Isabella Gibb ( quoted as Isabella barr in the gazette article) married AG Barr of Barrs irn Bru fame....their marraige only lasted a couple of months as her husband Andrew Barr died, leaving her 7 months pregnant. Andrew Barr's brother took over the Barrs empire which still exists today. The Barr family sent me pictures of Isabella, with her son (who was called Andrew after his late father) at the family home of the brother who took over the company!

Thanks for your help here.

 

[andygibb]

Hi

Given the following they must have made a few trips:
Isabella b. 1881, Burma
Helen b. 1882, Scotland
Margaret b. 1884, Burma
Mary b. 1886, Scotland

Was the James b. about 1848 possibly James (Hardie or Hardy) Gibb?

This may be useful:

FMP Passenger lists:
Name:GIBB J
DOB:Unknown
***: M
Dep year:1904
Dep Port: Southampton
Dest Country: Burma
Dest Port:Rangoon

Geoff

Thanks for this:

In all the records I have for James snr ( death, newspaper articles, marraige to Jane Waddell certificate) only the marrage record to Jane referes to a middle name of Hardy. His dob on that was noted as 1848 with his fathers name noted as William (no mothers name was entered).

There is another census entry for 1851 showing a James Gibb, aged 2 at the MacArthur household in Linlithgow Bridge, as a visitor. A William Gibb married a Margaret MacArthur in Linlithgow on 11th October 1836 and I believe the family this james was staying at is his grand mothers on his mothers side. I have traced this james in 1861 census and 1871 census, where he becomes an engine draughtsman. My James was an engineer in Burma so i had assumed that the Linlithgow one was him....but now that you have found the James Hardy entry I will need to re look at that part but i am sure I looked at it before and this James H Gibb eventially went to America to stay, and was just coincidental that the name and age almost matched.

All I know for certain is he was James hardy gibb on the wedding record in 1880, which is deffinatly my James (confirmed by the Edinburgh Gazette article) and he died there in 1912 (confirmed by his will naming his son...my grandad...and Jane Younger...but making no reference to his wife Jane Waddell or his four girls!!!). There is additional documents within the will, however where Jane Waddell signs off any liability to his estate, and is witnessed by Mary Gibb, their youngest daughter!!

The 1904 ships record is on the Gneisenau bound for China and Japan and the J Gibb is listed with a Mrs Gibb getting off at Rangoon. There are no ages or jobs listed and no sign of my grandad who was born in 1901 (according to his death certificate) and they are listed on the record as being English and not "scotch"....I did find a trip made on 25th April 1911 from Penang to Southampton on the Prinzess Alice of a James Gibb (engineer), Jane Gibb and master James Gibb ( dates fit, area close, and names and jobs fit)but there were no ages on this record ...however i have since found that this family travelled out on the same ship on 2nd October 1907, James snr described as a labourer, aged 42, Jane 46 and James jnr 9 so James age is far to young.

Anyway thanks for your help

best wishes

Andy

 

[horse]

Hi

I've since found the extra info from the 1904 entry to Rangoon on FMP, and yes there is no master Gibb (expected aged abt. 3y).

To complicate matters, there is a Mr J or J E Gibb travelling to Burma from time-to-time, unfortunately they don't always note the profession. One instance is in March 1911 when a J E Gibb (Scot) went out to Burma, a month before your family arrived in Southampton from Penang. There is another instance in 1914 that would be after your James' death, however! Still nothing else found for travel to Burma, given the oil industry at that time you would expect more info

I've had a quick look at the censuses for the 2 James' b. 1848 and 1850 respectively and I suspect a clear head will be required, not going to be an easy task. The similarity you found with the James H Gibb emigrating to the US hasn't changed from the early years :2fun:

Geoff

 

[andygibb]

Hi

I've since found the extra info from the 1904 entry to Rangoon on FMP, and yes there is no master Gibb (expected aged abt. 3y).

To complicate matters, there is a Mr J or J E Gibb travelling to Burma from time-to-time, unfortunately they don't always note the profession. One instance is in March 1911 when a J E Gibb (Scot) went out to Burma, a month before your family arrived in Southampton from Penang. There is another instance in 1914 that would be after your James' death, however! Still nothing else found for travel to Burma, given the oil industry at that time you would expect more info

I've had a quick look at the censuses for the 2 James' b. 1848 and 1850 respectively and I suspect a clear head will be required, not going to be an easy task. The similarity you found with the James H Gibb emigrating to the US hasn't changed from the early years :2fun:

Geoff

Thanks Geoff,

it really is a bit of a nightmare and I am really hoping i get to the bottom of it as it has been a stumbling block to my family research as i cant really go up the Gibb line until i establish who James Gibb was, and then find his father/mother etc.

Anyway hopefully I will get to the bottom of this and work it out in time.

All the best

Andy

 

[horse]

Hi Andy

I followed the James Gibb I found (I think), using trees and following up with validation as possible. There is a reliance on 1910 and 20 US censuses (poor quality originals) for arrival (appears to be 1859/60) and residence. There is nothing else suggestive in Scotland or anywhere else for that James H Gibb.

It is easier to follow your James - 1861, though I don't fully understand the mother/brother bit (Parish: Ballingry; ED: 2; Page: 11; Line: 3; Roll: CSSCT1861_53). Certainly in 1871 (Parish: Govan; ED: 16; Page: 33; Line: 4; Roll: CSSCT1871_144) as an Engine Draughtsman; confirms his engineering occupation. Of course by 1881 he was married (1880) and in Burma with their first child.

No sign in 1891 and 1901 of course he could have been in Burma.

At least you can probably discount the James b. 1850, though you did think he'd emigrated to the US.

Geoff

 

[horse]

Hi Andy

Been checking out some of the family in case James or either of the Jane's were visiting and came across this, don't know if you've seen it, may or may not be of interest:
1901 Scotland Census about Jane Gibb
Name: Jane Gibb
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relationship: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Registration number: 467
Registration district: Dollar
Civil parish: Dollar
Town: Dollar
County: Clackmannanshire
Address: North View No 1
Occupation: Living On Own Means
ED: 1
Household schedule number:32
Line: 2
Roll: CSSCT1901_152
Name Age
Jane Gibb 45
Helen Gibb 18, b. Polmont
Margaret Gibb 16, b. India
Mary Gibb 14, b. Polmont

Interestingly it has Margaret b. India, not Burma
Would be interesting to know if it was Calcutta or not, I seem to recall a Gibb family and Calcutta, though cannot remember where at mo, will recheck that.

This may be her in 1929..
UK Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960:
Name: Margaret Gibb
Birth Date: abt 1883
Age: 46
Port of Departure: Calcutta, India
Arrival Date: 6 May 1929
Port of Arrival: London, England
Ports of Voyage: Colombo
[Plymouth]
Ship Name: Mandala
Shipping Line: British & Indian Steam Navigation Company
Official Number: 137806
The record indicates she is travelling with a George Gibb, 11. Last permanent address: India. Proposed new address, Scotland, giving: 11 Knowehead Cres., Angus.

Geoff

 

[andygibb]

Hi Andy

Been checking out some of the family in case James or either of the Jane's were visiting and came across this, don't know if you've seen it, may or may not be of interest:
1901 Scotland Census about Jane Gibb
Name: Jane Gibb
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relationship: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Registration number: 467
Registration district: Dollar
Civil parish: Dollar
Town: Dollar
County: Clackmannanshire
Address: North View No 1
Occupation: Living On Own Means
ED: 1
Household schedule number:32
Line: 2
Roll: CSSCT1901_152
Name Age
Jane Gibb 45
Helen Gibb 18, b. Polmont
Margaret Gibb 16, b. India
Mary Gibb 14, b. Polmont

Interestingly it has Margaret b. India, not Burma
Would be interesting to know if it was Calcutta or not, I seem to recall a Gibb family and Calcutta, though cannot remember where at mo, will recheck that.

This may be her in 1929..
UK Incoming Passenger Lists, 1878-1960:
Name: Margaret Gibb
Birth Date: abt 1883
Age: 46
Port of Departure: Calcutta, India
Arrival Date: 6 May 1929
Port of Arrival: London, England
Ports of Voyage: Colombo
[Plymouth]
Ship Name: Mandala
Shipping Line: British & Indian Steam Navigation Company
Official Number: 137806
The record indicates she is travelling with a George Gibb, 11. Last permanent address: India. Proposed new address, Scotland, giving: 11 Knowehead Cres., Angus.

Geoff

Geoff,

The 1901 census is my family.

Margaret was born in Rangoon ( I have a copy of her birth record from 12th June 1884 which is from the India birth and baptism records), however Rangoon at that time was listed as "Rangoon, Bengal, India". If you look at the 1891 census you will see the family in Rothesay (where Margaret is listed as "Daisy") with her mum and sisters, and on this census her birth is listed as Burma, as is her sister Isabel....so yes...confusing.

The 1929 ship record is not her, however, as she became Margaret Loudon in 1909, marrying in Brazil, and I have many passenger list records for her, her husband and family travelling back and forward from Brazil between 1916 and1933. Margaret died on the Isle of Wight in 1962. It is Margaret's grand daughter that I am in touch with...who was as "in the dark" about my great grandad and his "two families" as I was!!!

I have completed most of the information on the 4 girls and Jane Waddell.

Jane (who became Jane Gibb) died in Berkhamsted in 1940 ( also having gone over to Brazil once, (presumably to "check out" her daughters future husband!!) and lived with her youngest daughter Mary until her death.
As I said previously Isabella married Andrew Grieg Barr and also moved to south of England after his death, being in Cornwall with her son in 1911 and dying in Hemel Hempstead in 1965.
Helen married James Neilson (also an engineer) in 1909 and went to India with him (again I have passenger lists of them travelling to and from in 1921,1925,1927) and she died in Dollar in 1951.
And Mary as I said lived with her mother until her mother died, but I have not yet looked into what happened to her after that.

So ironically I have found so much about my great grandfather's "first " family, but due to the lack of information on travelling to and from Burma etc, I cant find much about his second, of whom I am decended from!!

I really appreciate your input on this, thank you so much

All the best

Andy

 

[horse]

Hi Andy

Thanks for putting me right about Margaret. Sometimes digging around can unearth an odd relative or two.

Quite an international set of ancestors you have there.

Good Luck
Geoff