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WILLIAM COLLIER b. 1710

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#1
I'm up against a brick wall with this man! Born in 1710, he married a SARAH DEALUS in 4/3/1738 at St.Dunstan, Stepney, London and had two sons - William & Mathew. I can find nothing about his parents.
He was described in his will (1789) as a "Gentleman of Chester" and was certainly a rich man. I have no idea if he was born in London but died in Chester or was born in Chester and died in London.
He was certainly married in London and both the sons were apparently born there. Are any other children known from this marriage? There are several sets of possible parents for several different William Colliers in the 1710 period.
Is there anybody out there who has researched this man?? I should be very grateful for any assistance. Thanks.
 
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#3
Hi Lee,
Thanks for your input. I have seen that entry by pennant publishing. I don't know exactly where he got all that info from because I've tried to confirm several of those dates without any success. Do you know who Linda Sullivan is and where she might be contacted? She seems to have researched the family and may well have gone beyond William & Sarah by now.
Regards,
Roger
 

oznannie

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#4
Hi Roger :)
In Genes ReUnited there is one listing for Sarah Dealus bn 1710.
The same poster has Wm Collier 1710 no birth place.
2 others have Wm bn Chester.
If you don't have subs, please let me know if you would like me to contact them on your behalf.
Cheers
oznannie
 

leefer

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#5
Hi Roger,seems a fascinating story.

I couldn't find a website for Linda Sullivan but right at the bottom of the link is the website for Silverliningbooks....Pennant is the publishers and they must have info on Linda Sullivan's web details.

I am sure if you leave them an email they will get back to you with an email or address.

As i said it is right at the bottom of the link i posted......good luck.


Regards...Lee.
 
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#6
Hi oznannie,

That would be great if you could find anything at all about this man and his family on Genes. It's not a site that I belong to certainly.

Regards,
Roger
 
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#9
Hi oznannie,

I'm not sure who you need dates for? My original post gave 1710 for William Collier ("Gentleman of Chester") which seems to be the most common date touted around by anybody who has him at the top of their tree. I can only find two sets of parents (both William & Elizabeth) who produced a William in 1710 in this area and whilst the christening locations are quite different - one in Holborn, City of London & the other in Clerkenwell, Middlesex, their dates are surprisingly similar. The Holborn William was 24th November 1710 & Clerkenwell was 24th December 1710.
Someone has pointed me to two more probable children to go with William & Sarah's two sons and I now have most of their relevant dates. The main problem is still finding, for sure, who William's parents were. I've also been told twice this week that William (d.1788) was buried in Chester. I don't know if that means he was a Cheshire man who returned to his roots or if he was a London boy 'made good' who retired to Chester.
Hopefully GRU will produce a lead. Thanks.
 
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#12
Thanks oznannie.

Perhaps I mis-understood you, but didn't you say that two of them in GRU referred to William being buried in Chester? I was hoping that they'd have some details or back up for those claims.

He's certainly a difficult man to pin down though. I've just downloaded a copy of his 1789 will, hoping that I'd learn something useful from it. However, apart from leaving everything to his two sons - William & Mathew (no mention of any other children or the grieving(?) widow) and a few papers & books to his favourite grandson - zilch! His executors are two good friends from Chester and the witnesses are one of these plus a.n.other - probably the solicitor's clerk. I suppose it indicates that he wrote the will in Chester and was probably living there at the time even if his sons were still living in London.

Oh well, back to the wall-breaking!

Regards, ROGER
 

oznannie

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#13
Hi Roger :)
I will try and find out more about Chester burial for you.
One contact said William bn 1710 was baptised at St Andrew Holborn but I think you already have this.

ozn
 

Ladybird1300

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#14
Hi Roger,

It seems we are related. Yes your William was born in London and married Sarah Delves (Dealus) 5th March 1738 St Dunstans Stepney. If I have the right baptism, he was b 1715 Stepney father Matthew. they were of Huguenot origin.
My ancestor was Elizabeth Collier b 8th March 1769 to Willam Collier and Martha Draper, and married William Lecerf 11th May 1806, sadly she died the following year.

Hope this helps

Amanda :biggrin:
 
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#15
Hi Amanda,

Yes, I've moved on quite a lot since the last posts here in 2011!
William was indeed married to Sarah Delves in 1738 and they had two known children - William [b.04.05.1742] & Mathew [03.01.1743]. Both baptised at St Leonards, Shoreditch. William - the son - married a Phoebe Booth in 1782 at the same church.

If we're related, I can't actually see the connection at the moment. I know the Colliers were a convoluted family but can you explain where your William fits in and who his parents were?

Regards,
Roger
 

Ladybird1300

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#16
Hi Roger,

And that's the problem, there is nothing conclusive about the family. Everyone has their own ideas, it's a bit of a mystery and I'll explain.
There are two marriages, my William to Martha Draper, and another marriage between another William and Martha Lee.
I think I've worked it out on my tree, but I can't confirm. There are a few Colliers with parents William and Martha, I think they belong to me because of their dates of birth. But I received a mail from another Ancestry member who says they can't all be related because of the address on the baptisms.
So can't really research until someone can make a decision.
The reason I think they are mine, is because Martha Lee would be in her 50's or 60's when these children are born.
That aside, William's father is Thomas Collier b abt 1714, he is possibly your William's step brother. I think Matthew was married twice. First to Elizabeth Walton then to Elizabeth Chesterman, the mother of your William, I haven't been able to confirm this, but it could be the reason they only had two children. Difficult to know for certain, because the original marriage isn't available on Ancestry.

Best wishes

Amanda
 
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#17
Hi Amanda,

Thomas Collier was baptised 05 December 1714 at St Botolph, Bishopsgate. I have him down as one of 5 children born to Mathew Collier & Elizabeth Walton. The others are Mathew (b.28/11/08 - d. 15/09/14): Elizabeth (b.16/04/10 - d. 27/07/12); Elinor (b.February 1711); Mary (b.25/01/12 or 13). All baptised at St Botolph. Mathew & Elizabeth were married 14th March 1707 at St Sepulchre, Holborn, London.

I then have Mathew marrying a second time to Elizabeth Chesterman (01/12/1714) and producing 2 more sons - William (b.13/07/15) & Mathew (b.08/03/16) both baptised at St Dunstan, Stepney. I always considered that there was something slightly odd about Eliz. Chesterman producing children at age 23 whilst her husband was aged 35+. Plus, these appeared to be the only two children they had - equally odd, unless one or other died soon thereafter.

I then found out about Eliz. Walton and it all seemed to fall into place - a second marriage. Their first son, Mathew had died young and as it was quite common to name a second child after a deceased one, a second Mathew appeared when he found a second wife.

The only fly in the ointment seems to be your Thomas who seems to have been born very shortly before Mathew's second marriage! There could be several reasons for this - perhaps Eliz. Walton had died in childbirth and Mathew ( now having 5 children to look after) had swiftly arranged a second
marriage with Eliz. Chesterman. Perhaps he'd been carrying on with her before his first wife died and now seemed an ideal opportunity. Second marriages often did take place quickly as financial considerations could mean the whole family being out on the street, starving. Perhaps Eliz. Walton had already left Mathew for another man, who might be Thomas's father, and the birth dates & marriage dates were entirely coincidental.

Eliz. Walton died on 19th September 1714 at St Mary, Whitechapel yet Thomas was baptised 5th December 1714 at St Botolph, Bishopsgate. It might be, depending on the circumstances of her death, that Thomas's baptism was put off for a while but, if she died giving birth to him, two and a half months does seem an unusual gap between birth & baptism.

I may say that I have a correspondent who is convinced that all the above is
totally wrong and that Mathew was only married once and had several children AFTER William & Mathew and none before. However, I still feel that there is something not quite right with the age disparity - in none of the other generations of Colliers that I have researched have the men left it until they were going on 36 years old before they got married and began procreating.

Also, the names all seem to fit in so well together - often a useful guide in tracing families. If I'm right, Mathew's (b.16/08/1678) own siblings included:- Mary, William & Elizabeth - all names used for his own children when he later married.

I'm always open to other ideas if you find proven alternatives Amanda.....

Regards,
Roger
 
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Ladybird1300

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#18
Hi Roger,

Yes I have all that information to, you may have been looking at my tree on Ancestry it's been there for sometime.
I have also found a death for the first Matthew who died at 6 years of age and was buried 4 days before Elizabeth at St Bottolph Aldgate, I guessed they must have died from the same thing.
I agree with all you have said, everything seems to have happened at the same time. But a baptism is no indication of when Thomas was born, unless the date of birth is present, for all we know he could have been six months old or more before he was baptised.
The age of Elizabeth Chesterman may not be right, I have not found her baptism. I'm open to any ideas as well, it seems the Colliers are difficult to research, I will keep trying to get to the bottom of these records, but we all need someone else to check our findings.

Amanda
 
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#19
Hi Amanda,

No, I hadn't seen your tree. I'm not currently an Ancestry subscriber.

I have Elizabeth Chesterman's baptism at 1st May 1692 (St Giles, Reading, Berks) - parents: John Chesterman & Sarah Morris.

I have Mathew's date of death as 15th September 1714 (only 4 days before his mother Eliz. Walton died - as you say, a strong probability that accident or illness took them both together). However, I have her burial at St Mary, Whitechapel not St Botolph, Bishopsgate.

Do you have any information relating to the date or place of death for Mathew (the father)?

Regards,
Roger
 

Ladybird1300

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#20
Hi Roger,

No I haven't found a death for Mathew and I wanted to ask a question, how do you know Elizabeth Chesterman is from Berkshire??
I was looking at another tree on Ancestry, and another scenario which hadn't occurred to me was, Elizabeth Chesterman could have been Thomas' mother.
Mary may have been the last child of Mathew & Elizabeth Walton. It's difficult to tell unless other records or information become available to back up any of these thoughts.

Best wishes
Amanda
 

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