William Davies - How do you prove this

[ladybird]

Question: How do you prove that this person is the right person.
I have a William Davies marrying a Mary Barrett Toxteth Park Liverpool 27 March 1878. Williams father is shown as a William Davies occupation Mariner. I do not know who his mother is.
I found on the 1871 census a William born 1859 with a father called William (Dock Labourer) this runs true through the family in latter years,as they were all Dock Labourers. This William is shown as born in Denbighshire Wales, wife Elizabeth born Montgomeryshire
.As North Wales is close to Liverpool, this could well be the family,But because I don't know Elizabeths surname, & because of the amount of William Davies born Liverpool with a Father named William, how do I ever find the right one. I would spend a fortune trying to order Birth Certificates. So where do I go from here please.Any advise would be most welcome

 

[duckweed]

Re: How do you prove this

You always start with what you know. Is this marriage certificate definitely your family? If so I would be looking for any Mariner information. I know the name is common but usual assumption is 21 at time of marriage if first marriage. So what mariners have you of that age and name leaving Liverpool (crew lists)?

I'm sure if you don't have access someone can look that up for you. There may be then naval records or shipping company records which you can look at. Baptismal certificates of the children will supply where they were living at time.

Also his death certificate can supply information. Is his death in the paper? Or wifes?

I'm afraid it really is hard slog looking at everyone that could be a possibility re census etc till you have eliminated them from your list.

 

[barbarajoh]

Re: How do you prove this

Do you have the marriage cert, Ladybird? If so what age are they both and what is the name of his wife's father. Then you can try and trace them on the census, if you haven't done so and look to see if any relatives ever stay with them?

Barbara

 

[barbarajoh]

Re: How do you prove this

And do any of the children have unusual names or middle names which help you at all. Put any extra info on here and sure we can help you.

Barbara

 

[davelambert271]

Re: How do you prove this

I think I have found your family, Marriage date a bit out

marriage - 04 Jul 1878
Liverpool, Lancashire, England

groom's name - William Davis
groom's birth date - 1856
groom's age - 22
bride's name - Mary Barrett
bride's birth date - 1857
bride's age - 21
marriage date - 04 Jul 1878
marriage place - Liverpool, Lancashire, England
groom's father's name - William Davis
bride's father's name - John Barrett
groom's marital status - Single
bride's marital status - Single

1901 census RG13-3428-121-1
William 43, Mary 41, William 22, Thomas 20, Patrick 18, Francis 15, Catherine 9 John Barrett 16 Visitor plus Edward Standish 55, and Catherine Standish 52

1891 census RG12-2925-62 61

1881 census RG11-3636-90-19

all birth places are Liverpool except Mary in 1901 which is given as Ireland.

My punt for William JNr's parents

1871 census RG10-3797-130-33

William 40 Llanganafal Denbigh, dock lab; Elizabeth 41 Llanidioes; William 12 Liverpool, Elizabeth 10 Liverpool

I would like to find something else to confirm this

dave

 

[davelambert271]

Re: How do you prove this

England, Marriages, 1538–1973

10 Jan 1858
Liverpool, Lancaster, England

groom's name - William Davies, single
bride's name - Elizabeth Williams, single
marriage date - 10 Jan 1858
marriage place - Liverpool, Lancaster, England
groom's father's name - John Davies
bride's father's name - Robert Williams

dave

 

[ladybird]

Re: How do you prove this

Yes this is the family that I have come up with, although as you say the year of birth is a bit out.
But my sticking point of course was the mother being Elizabeth,& having no surname.
Stupidly, but that is why this site is so good, because you have now helped, I did not look for a marriage in Liverpool, I looked in Wales not Liverpool, thinking that they must have met in Wales.
So how do I prove this,well I suppose that is my next task. Thank you very much

 

[ladybird]

Re: How do you prove this

Do you have the marriage cert, Ladybird? If so what age are they both and what is the name of his wife's father. Then you can try and trace them on the census, if you haven't done so and look to see if any relatives ever stay with them?

Barbara

No unfortunately i don't have a birth certificate, because there are so many William Davies born in Liverpool , & this is why I have become stuck .
Thank you for your reply

 

[duckweed]

Re: How do you prove this

So what led you to that marriage and that couple? What is the earliest you know as fact?

 

[ladybird]

Re: How do you prove this

So what led you to that marriage and that couple? What is the earliest you know as fact?

I know that Patrick Davies parents were William & Mary nee Barret from his birth certificate. & I have their marriage certificate showing Williams Father as William occupation Mariner. This is where it becomes a bit grey,as William on this marriage certificate shows his age as 22 in 1878 which would mean born in 1856.However on the 1901 census he is 43 which would mean born 1858.
So, my only idea was that as all the family came from Toxteth Park & were Dock Labourers & that they seemed to stay in the same area of Toxteth park, just moving streets. The only possibility that I found on the 1871 census was a William aged 12 which would mean born 1859 with a father called William (Dock Labourer) who was born in Denbighshire, & a mother Elizabeth born Montogomeryshire. I know it is not set in stone, but I can't seem to get past this or find any other possibilities.
So as I say on one of my other posts, this is where I have become stuck, but I did not think of looking at a Liverpool marriage.
Have you any other thoughts?
Thanks

 

[barbarajoh]

Are there any witnesses on the marriage certificate? I think you need to try and find brothers or sisters to tie the family down. And perhaps try and figure out who the Standishes are on the census Dave found for you, perhaps they are relations.

Barbara

 

[ladybird]

Are there any witnesses on the marriage certificate? I think you need to try and find brothers or sisters to tie the family down. And perhaps try and figure out who the Standishes are on the census Dave found for you, perhaps they are relations.

Barbara

Witnesses are William Halley & Bridget Barrett who of course must be related. So yes I will go off on the Barrett line a bit & see if there are any more clues.
Thanks Barbara, sometimes you forget to do the obvious, as you become so bogged down with the straight line.

 

[barbarajoh]

I know and sometimes you need to go sideaways to go backaways!

Even if you find a Davies child living with a Barrett or viceaversa, it might help you.
I hope so.

Barbara

 

[Kerrymac]

Ladybird, do you have any more information on Davies and Williams family line.As they are both in my family tree and could well be same family.Davies and Williams are both from North Wales and settled in Toxteth area in Liverpool.Family involved in Docks and Potteries at Liverpool and also stonemasons.A long shot, but Mariner connection maybe linked to tug Captains on the Mersey.Will try and find out more details for you,to match.Best wishes Kerrymac.

 

[ladybird]

Hello Kerrymac

This is what I know
William Davies born circa 1833 Noth Wales Denbighshire marries an Elizabeth Williams from I think Montgomeryshire. He is a Dock Labourer, they have 2 children William & Elizabeth. In 1891 William & Elizabeth(Williams) are living in Grafton Street Toxteth.
William is born in c1858 born Liverpool (Dock Labourer) & marries Mary Barrett in 1878.
They have 4 children
William, Thomas, Francis & Patrick. in 1891 they are living in Gore Street Toxteth.
Patrick Davies who becomes Davis when he is married marries a Margaret Tierney in 1906 at St Patricks Toxteth.
They have 4 children one dies I have never been able to find out the name
the 3 others were Catherine, Francis & John. John worked on the Docks.

I hope that we can make a connection somewhere.

Ladybird