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Yorkshire Holmes

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#1
Hi - Thanks for letting me join this group. I am researching the family history for a Melbourne (Australia) lady called Anne – her father was a JEFFERY and her mother was a HOLMES. Her Jefferys are from Sussex and I have the JEFFERY pedigree back to William JEFFERY born 1685. But the HOLMES pedigree has hit a brick wall at Joseph HOLMES born 1811 in Anwoth, Kirkcudbrightshire. In 1837 he married Ann McMINNIES born 1809 in Crossmichael, Kirkcudbrightshire.
I have Anne McMINNIES parents and grandparents – both her parents were born in Crossmichael. Joseph and Ann’s children were all born in Kirkcudbrightshire.
To date, I have been unable to find either of Joseph HOLMES’ parents.
I have tested Anne and one of her sisters at FTDNA and have tested her son and another of her sisters at ANCESTRY.
When I search through the ANCESTRY matches on those who have HOLMES in their family trees, nearly all of these HOLMES were born in Yorkshire. And as well as having HOLMES in their trees, many have other significant surnames in their trees, as Anne does – names such as BUCHANAN, WALKER, WILSON, SMITH, STUBBS and so on.
I am therefore leaning towards the likelihood that Joseph (1811) HOLMES’s father was born in Yorkshire and moved up to Scotland but at this stage have not found him.
Joseph (1811) HOLMES had three sons, Thomas, Joseph and John.
Thomas had the one son – Joseph. I have not been able to find if his brothers had children.
Based on the above, it is probably a fair assumption to consider that Joseph (1811) HOLMES’ father was probably Thomas. To date, I have looked for a Thomas HOLMES born circa 1785 somewhere in Yorkshire and died hopefully in Kirkcudbrightshire. No luck as yet. Can anybody assist please?
 

barbarajoh

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#3
welcome John

Are they using the Scottish naming patterns? You can tell easily if you know Anne's parents and if so you can have a pretty good idea of Joseph's mother as well as knowing his father was Thomas. There is an interesting grave in Troqueer with the name Holmes and McMinn. Not your family but may be relations?

Perhaps put a query on the Scottish thread and someone will help. I would do further but electricity being cut off on our street for 8 hours today in 5 mins:'(

Barbara
 
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#5
Thanks for your assistance. Ann McMINNIES’ parents were John McMINNIES (1775-1855) and Janet THOMSON. John McMINNIES’ parents were James McMUNNIES (1750) and Janet Isabel McWHELAN. Would be interested, if possible, to have further info on the grave in Troqueer. I did try and find a marriage for Thomas HOLMES and found one to Alison JOHNSTON in 1775 in Dunbar – too far away – and another to Janet Neilson in 1776 in Barony.

Searching through Scotlandspeople today, it’s possible that Joseph HOLMES (1811) is the son of James HOLMS (1786-1859) and Jane HOLMS (MNU) (1786-1860). And James could be the son of Thomas HOLMS (1767).

JC
Anglesea, Australia
 

barbarajoh

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#6
John, I see that Joseph died in 1887 in Irongray. If you buy the death record from Scotlandspeople.gov.uk you will get his parents names, his dad's occupation and his mother's maiden name, also his cause of death and exact date of death and who the informant was. It is a paying site but well worth the £1.30 or so the record will cost you as you will know for sure you have the right parents.

Let me know if you have any problems.

Barbara
 

barbarajoh

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#7
I also see Joseph Holmes mentioned in the wills and testament section of the same website. Might give you some background info

Holmes
Joseph
21/11/1887
Peartree, Parish of Irongray, d. 22/08/1887 at Peartree aforesaid, testate
Kirkcudbright Sheriff Court
 

barbarajoh

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#9
Crossmichael Monumental Inscriptions

Ann McMinnies 24.9.1870 61 Helen Holmes d Clarabrand 20.8.1850 12. Janet Holmes d Clarebrand 24.9.1850 8y. Mary Holmes d Peartree 13.12.1869 24. Joseph Holmes d Peartree 23.8.1887 84, da Annie d Peartree 5.4.1880
 
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#10
Barbara – many thanks for your assistance. I bought the death record for Joseph died 1887 in Irongray. Joseph Holmes – Forrester – widower of Ann McMinnies – died 23 Aug 1887 at Peartree – age 82 – probably should be 72 as he was born in 1811 – father listed as Thomas Holmes – Forrester – deceased – no wife/mother recorded – informant – James McMinnies – brother-in-law.

I also downloaded the will – it is eight pages and I will need to transcribe it but it is gold in so far as it mentions his son Thomas “in Australia” as well as other family members.

Re Anne’s Holmes line – her mother was Pearl Josephine Holmes (1916-1980) – her maternal grandfather was Joseph Thomas Holmes (1889-1915) – her maternal great-grandfather was Thomas Holmes, son of Joseph Holmes.

Regards
John
 
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#11
I currently have Jane HOLMS (1786-1860) – MNU – married to James HOLMS (1786-1859) as the likely parents of Joseph (1811-1887). I have bought Jane’s death record from Scotlandspeople and it states that she is the widow of “ships carpenter” – Joseph was a ships carpenter – died 1860 in Anwoth. It lists her father as Thomas (unreadable) and her mother as Sarah – also unreadable including maiden name. Am I allowed to upload this document to this site and ask if anyone can decipher the names for me?
 

barbarajoh

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#13
John, I am not understanding why you think James is the father of Joseph when the death certificate clearly says Thomas. And Thomas works better as first boy's name. There was no mother as the informant prob didn't know or couldn't remember the name of Thomas' wife as he was of the McMinnies side. But he was sure about the Thomas.

I sent you a private message re the other grave transcription if you want that too.

The reason I asked about which child is that there is an illegitimate child born to Ann Holmes I thought you might be interested in.

When was Joseph a ship's carpenter. Was he not a woodsman?

Barbara
 

barbarajoh

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#14
Another grave this time for the ones you thought were parents of Joseph At Old Anwoth

Erected by James Holms, Mariner in memory of his son Thomas a young man of amiable disposition who died much regreted in Wigton, Cumberland 18th June 1839 aged 24 years. Also Andrew McMinn his brother-in-law who died in Gatehouse 25th March 1845 aged 70 years. Also James Holmes the erector who died 8 July 1859 aged 75 years. Jane McMinn his wife died 12 Feb 1860 aged 81 years. Also Elizabeth Holmes his daughter who died at 5 Shamrock Street, W. Glasgow 3d May 1895 aged 77 years.
Reverse - Also in memory of Samuel Bennet who died 29th June 1876 aged 33 years. Jane his daughter died 29 July 1876 aged 4 months.


This couple married at Urr in 1814 so a bit late to be parents of Joseph.
 
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#15
Barbara – my mistake – you are quite right that Joseph’s father is Thomas the Forrester. Senior moment yet again. I responded to your private message but didn’t hear from you – was the info you wanted to give me in your last post?

So I have Joseph’s father as Thomas – no birth date or place – I still have a feeling he wasn’t born in Scotland, probably the north of England.

I have transcribed Joseph’s will into a WORD document – I can send you a copy if interested.

Lastly – is BarbaraJoh short for Barbara Johnson? - my friend Anne’s sister Jill has a match on Ancestry with a Barbara Johnson who has Holmes in her tree – but I think she is based in the USA.

Regards John
 

barbarajoh

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#16
It is John but no Holmes in my tree that I have found so far although most of mine are in Yorkshire as my parents are from there.

I need your email to send the other grave record as there are a few people on the stone. You can only do that by private message on here not in a reply to thread. Up the top right hand side there is a wee blue box and should be notification of one message on there.

Does the will give any further clues for you? You could be right that they are from the England originally but had to be up here at some point to have Joseph as he always said he was born in Kirkcudbrightshire. And Thomas prob died up in Scotland? First girl seemed to be Ellen so not using the naming patterns really.

Barbara
 
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#17
Hi Barbara – I replied to your private message but obviously that didn’t work – you have asked me to click on the wee blue box – what wee blue box? I am elderly and sometimes struggle but I am also a 50-year IT veteran. I find this site very difficult to navigate – no doubt in time, it will get easier! Am I breaking the rules by saying that my email address is scwgenealogy AT gmail DOT com? I hope not because it is the only way I can get through at the moment.

Cheers
JC
 

DaveHam9

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#18
Some things are not fitting.

1841
Piece: SCT1841/855 Place: ANWORTH -Kirkcudbrightshire ED: 1
Civil Parish: Anwoth Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 1 Page: 8
Address: Fleet Street
Surname First name(s) *** Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
HOLMES James M 55 Mariner England
HOLMES Jane F 55 Kirkcudbrightshire
HOLMES Elizabeth F 20 Kirkcudbrightshire

Birth or baptism date
HOLMS
ELIZABETH
JAMES HOLMS/JANE MCMINN FR217 (FR217)
F
04/03/1819
868/
10 210
Kells
 
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#20
Thanks for that Dave - I have a copy of the 1841 census extract and I have temporarily placed these Holmes in my tree - I have done so because I am convinced that there is a connection between them and my Joseph Holmes (1811) Anwoth and his father Thomas. But still haven't made the connection.

JC
 

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